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yellowfoden wrote:I like this format and will cross check mine in due course.
You can also pencil into your master table at your code 5 I have wide as well as narrow tow guides.
In your final copy I think it would also be worth adding as a footnote that a new unlisted 11.5x44 tread count was introduced to this model.

Thanks Bert - I hope I haven't missed out too much. I haven't counted treads to look for 11.5x44 yet, but I'll add it as a footnote for the final table.

yellowfoden wrote:The mechanics in determining how far the container will tip are governed by:
1. The rear chassis cross member thickness (ie poorly cast top edge)
2. The container brace that adjoins the container pivot axle supports ( acts as a stop )
3. The size of axle holes and diameter of axle/pin. (extra sideways movement)

Fabulous pictures - and they explain the tipping angles brilliantly. I also think that the brace on the rear cross member must have been added to control the tipper. Antonin has told us here that his wide-opening tipper is without a number, so I'm sure it's as you suggest. For me, the final mystery is whether this unnumbered tipper is a modified mould 2 or a new casting completely.

Some great information shown here, from your listings i can see that I have 9 and 10 but both of my models only go to 45 degrees.
The code 9 I have has the smaller tow guide as well.
Jason

Sebastian10 wrote:I think this example is one that may be a little harder to find
Details are
1 Tipper body with number 1 cast, 2mm tabs, no rear bumper and faint casting ring on black hydrosleeve
2 Silver chassis with original thin rear axle mounts, number 2 cast and no rear cross member ridge
3 Dull/darker red plastic baseplate with 7mm wide tow guide
4 Silver lid on tipper body
Happy collecting Sebastian

Hello Sebastian,
Thank you for showing the model listed as code 3, that is the first time I have seen that variation and rather pleased just to have seen a photo.
I think you are right about it being hard to find.
Bert

DrJeep wrote:...... For me, the final mystery is whether this unnumbered tipper is a modified mould 2 or a new casting completely.

Hi Glenn

The mystery could be solved.
What a difference a day makes, being fortunate today to examine another casting.
Here is a photo (taken at an angle so we can see mould number position) of the container WITHOUT number paired with a RW body with thick axle supports, the brace on the cross member and wide tow guide.
The container has the 1.5mm tabs, bumper and the rounded thin rear brace.
The lettering on the bottom of the container WITHOUT number has Nº 47 cast but with capital N with dot under o.
The lettering on the bottom of the container number 2 has the NO 47 cast in capitals
In the second photo I have also highlighted that the lettering TIPPER does not line up with lettering in line below when the two castings are compared.
So it appears that the mould WITHOUT a number is indeed a new mould

It also has slightly bigger holes for the tipper axle as well as the step on the thin brace

WITHOUT number Tips to 46 degrees

The other number 2 mould tips to 33 degrees

Container Number 2 = 1.0mm rear wall thickness measured at the top

Container WITHOUT number = 0.75mm rear wall thickness measured at the top.

I think this is most likely the same variation where Antonin’s tips to 90 degree. This one is stopped by a cats whisker thickness by the casting from tipping past 46 degree.

Now, I should have noticed this before I sent through my previous detailed post having studied a SF container WITHOUT number but I was thrown by the very proud ejector rings which gave me the impression of having been in use for a while.
The new mould without a number has ejector rings which are flush.
I think I may have counted too many treads of late and my eyes are missing the obvious.

Glenn you might have to put that SF 47c back in the collection.

Bert

Bert

Glad you enjoyed the model with the early base with the later tow guide.

I really like the new number variation - the No. instead of NO on the tipper underside - I have never noticed this before

I checked each of my models but as as they are all the earlier type as expected they all have NO

Ah well another one to look for

Well spotted!

Sebastian

yellowfoden wrote:The mystery could be solved.

Not could be - you've solved it! Thanks, Bert - brilliant detective work. So we know now that the mould for tipper 2 had to be replaced late in production with a new mould that wasn't given a number.

It does raise another question (there's always another question!): when did mould 2 become unusable? We haven't discussed the intermediate tipper that has a thicker brace but not a bumper (shown in Bert's last picture here). Was this modification done to moulds 1 and 2, or only mould 1? It seems like this might be a scarce variation.

There has been some great detective work done here on these Tipper details and also on possible additional codes that MAY exist. I am very sorry I missed your last 2 codes with Tipper Bumpers Dr. Jeep, I simply needed to scroll down a bit further to see them quite clearly.
A note to Sebastian would be that I was in the same position as Bert was, because until now I had never seen that code three Tipper, and have never found one to buy for our collection. Mike Stannard shows that combination with either gray or silver roof, and these are the only two Stannard codes we are in need of to complete the variations HE noted in 1985. He completely missed the containers with rear bumper, so our work on these Tipper details will add new codes just as it does with Nick's Guide.
Hello Dr. Jeep! No criticism ever meant by me, BUT, be careful on adding both wide and narrow notes on every code with a tow guide until we on the Forum find an example of each to verify their existence. A solution is to remove narrow from all codes except those we have discussed here on the Forum as positively existing as of now. As others are discovered and confirmed, the narrow guides can be (Re)added. (We cannot assume every "With guide" code exists with both wide and narrow). The only other point is that the rear bumper container with narrow rear support was not labeled as having no container #, but how do we fit that into the space on your chart? It seems important now.
An exemplary job done here Dr. Jeep on your chart, and Sebastian has Bert and I knowing that illusive Code 3 DOES exist. Of course Antonin can come forward with variations of code 3 he already has in his collection any time now.......LOL Cheers! Kwakers

Kwakers wrote:be careful on adding both wide and narrow notes on every code with a tow guide until we on the Forum find an example of each to verify their existence. A solution is to remove narrow from all codes except those we have discussed here on the Forum as positively existing as of now. As others are discovered and confirmed, the narrow guides can be (Re)added. (We cannot assume every "With guide" code exists with both wide and narrow).

You're right, of course - we need to see all the different tow guide base variants before we can be sure they exist. I think we'll find both widths on nearly all variants. The one that I wonder about is that rare, very early silver one with thin chassis and no rear brace (3 in my table). Perhaps the wide tow guide came first, as shown in Sebastian's example. I'm also surprised that the two widths of tow guide haven't yet been reported on the 58c DAF.

Anyway, I've had another go at the table and I've put a question mark next to all the tow guides we haven't seen, and put in bold those that we have. I hope this works for you.

I also spotted that I had a duplicated line: my variant 8 was the same as 9 (I think that the thicker brace in Stannard and Houghton is the one we've called the bumper). So I've deleted that, and tidied up the mapping to Stannard, Houghton and Nick Jones, which had also gone a bit wrong. Variation 9 is now the new find with the unnumbered tipper and the different text. There's a footnote to explain this. I hope this all makes sense! I'm afraid you still need to scroll down to see everything, including the footnotes.

If you just 'Left Click' on the image it will display fully.

Ghosthunter.

I think this one is code 7 in the most recent table posted.

Details are :

Dull red baseplate
Narrow tow guide
Number 1 tipper
Number 2 chassis
Silver plastic lid
1.5 mm tabs
No rear bumper

Happy collecting

Sebastian