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Interesting! It would be good if everyone with the late container (with the bumper) could check mould numbers to see if mould 2 was still in use. SF containers are also relevant here. Perhaps mould 2 broke and was replaced with this new unnumbered container that opens to 90 degrees.

I think this example is one that may be a little harder to find

Details are

1 Tipper body with number 1 cast, 2mm tabs, no rear bumper and faint casting ring on black hydrosleeve
2 Silver chassis with original thin rear axle mounts, number 2 cast and no rear cross member ridge
3 Dull/darker red plastic baseplate with 7mm wide tow guide
4 Silver lid on tipper body

Happy collecting

Sebastian

I checked some of our 47C Trucks with containers that had rear bumpers and found the same results as Diecast did so that all three new codes of them can now be confirmed:
1. The one with the narrow front tow Guide had Container #1 with the thicker inner cross brace on that container.
2. One model with the wider front tow bar also had Container #1 with the thicker inner cross brace on that container.
3. Another model with the wider front tow bar has a container with no number on it that confirms Diecast's thin inner cross brace was used on that one.
All three of these front plastic tow guide bases use the Darker red plastic on them.
I have not found container #2 or in fact any other number used on our regular wheel containers with rear bumpers.
Cheers! Kwakers

Kwakers
3.Another model with the wider front tow bar has a container with no number on it that confirms Diecast's thin inner cross brace was used on that one.

Dick, Thank you for showing that summary. I have followed this up by checking how SF fit in.

Glenn
Interesting! It would be good if everyone with the late container (with the bumper) could check mould numbers to see if mould 2 was still in use. SF containers are also relevant here. Perhaps mould 2 broke and was replaced with this new unnumbered container that opens to 90 degrees

Hi Glenn
I had a look at 4 superfast models of the 47c
They all tip up to about 45 degree.
They all have the container bumper.
Number 1 container has the wider flat brace on the rear of container
The container with NO number has the thinner rounded brace
I have never seen a SF number 2 container.
This could indicate that number 2 lost its number as a regular wheel and became the superfast with NO number and the number 2 was not reinstated by re-engraving the die.
On the subject of No bumper and bumper models I have also never seen a SF 47 DAF without the container bumper.

Bert

With thanks to all who've contributed, here's my latest attempt at a variation list for the 47c. I've decided (perhaps wrongly - you tell me!) not to distinguish between the two different tow guide widths. The logic for this is that they both seem to be in use throughout production, though I think the narrow tow guide is more scarce. Similarly, I've just noted that there are two bases and two tippers because they seem to be identical. The exception is right at the end of production when an unnumbered tipper appears. This is either a heavily modified tipper 2, or a new moulding completely. Careful examination of text and ejector rings may shed light on this, if anyone feels like investigating.

Anyway, as usual, tell me what's wrong and what's missing. This one has been fun. Bert's shown us a completely unlisted variation, Sebastian has shown an early use of the tow guide, Kwakers proved that the two different tow guide widths survive to the end of production, and we've started to unravel the mystery of Antonin's late model that tips much further.

Great research Guys and thank's to Glenn for the variations listing.

Can I just add the issue of 'Old Stock' or mixed components.
Model number 3 with a 'Tow Guide' then model number 4 without 'Tow Guide' (now an 'Old Stock' component), is perfectly feasable as it shows the base component without the guide has more than likely been placed in the hopper with all the new bases with a 'Tow Guide'. The other specs are enough to confirm those Two models are as good as in the right order.

Ghosthunter.

GHOSTHUNTER wrote:without 'Tow Guide' (now an 'Old Stock' component), is perfectly feasable as it shows the base component without the guide has more than likely been placed in the hopper with all the new bases with a 'Tow Guide'.

Yes, I'm sure that's what happened: all the bases were mixed together. It's not even old stock, really. All of this happened in just over two years, from introduction in 1968 (after the 58c DAF, but sharing a base) to conversion to Superfast late in 1970.

I think you have seemed to miss the point on the narrow Tow Guide Dr. Jeep, we have no idea IF they were used all through the 47C production and should not assume so. Also, If we treat the narrow and wide Tow Guide bases as the same one rather than note one of them as a third type of base, we move backward. The narrow guide really needs to be studied carefully by Forum members so as to be accurate on EACH code it is found on, old or new. I also am not seeing the notation for the container with the rear bumper being specified, let alone the two different rear crossmembers being thin or thick on those two additional later RW container bodies that Nick is still missing in his Guide. I'll have to study your latest listing more carefully rather than be critical of it. I feel very Dumb tonight....Kwakers

kwakers wrote:I think you have seemed to miss the point on the narrow Tow Guide Dr. Jeep, we have no idea IF they were used all through the 47C production and should not assume so. Also, If we treat the narrow and wide Tow Guide bases as the same one rather than note one of them as a third type of base, we move backward. The narrow guide really needs to be studied carefully by Forum members so as to be accurate on EACH code it is found on, old or new. I also am not seeing the notation for the container with the rear bumper being specified, let alone the two different rear crossmembers being thin or thick on those two additional later RW container bodies that Nick is still missing in his Guide. I'll have to study your latest listing more carefully rather than be critical of it. I feel very Dumb tonight....Kwakers

Criticism isn't a problem! I think you make two separate points:

I also am not seeing the notation for the container with the rear bumper being specified, let alone the two different rear crossmembers being thin or thick on those two additional later RW container bodies that Nick is still missing in his Guide.
These are at the bottom of the table - variations 8, 9 and 10. I should have explained the terminology better, but 8 has the thick crossmember and 9 and 10 the bumper. Perhaps you didn't click and scroll down?

I think you have seemed to miss the point on the narrow Tow Guide Dr. Jeep, we have no idea IF they were used all through the 47C production and should not assume so. Also, If we treat the narrow and wide Tow Guide bases as the same one rather than note one of them as a third type of base, we move backward.
So why do I think they were in use throughout?

My notes show that Sebastian has a thin chassis, no brace silver 47c with a wide tow guide. Bert has a thick chassis, no brace 47c with a narrow tow guide. That puts the narrow tow guide near the start of production, though not right at the start, as we haven't seen a green 47c with a tow guide. Kwakers has bumpered 47cs with both thick and thin tow guides. That takes us from the introduction of tow guides to the end, though I think the narrow tow guide is more scarce.

I agree that there are three different bases, and the footnote makes this clear (perhaps you didn't see it?). However, you and Bert show that the two tow guide widths were in use simultaneously, rather like the silver and grey roofs. When I listed them separately, it just seemed to add duplication, rather like listing the two chassis separately would. But I'm happy to post the longer list so you can see if you like it better! Let me know.

Hi Glenn,
Thanks for the new table, I like this format and will cross check mine in due course.
You can also pencil into your master table at your code 5 I have wide as well as narrow tow guides.
In your final copy I think it would also be worth adding as a footnote that a new unlisted 11.5x44 tread count was introduced to this model.

drjeep..... and we've started to unravel the mystery of Antonin's late model that tips much further.

In looking a little closer as to why the container can tip at 90 degree.

The mechanics in determining how far the container will tip are governed by:
1. The rear chassis cross member thickness (ie poorly cast top edge)
2. The container brace that adjoins the container pivot axle supports ( acts as a stop )
3. The size of axle holes and diameter of axle/pin. (extra sideways movement)

Please note to explain my thoughts I have used a SF example of NO number container. I do not have a RW NO number container and I have yet to see close up photos to show this info.

The key is the container brace which I have circled or blocked in red.
On the RW container 1 and 2 this brace is almost flush See photo 1
Towards the end container 2 starts to develop a step..see below.
On the SF, container 1 is, but on NO number they are not. See photo 2
The NO number container now has a step and this allows the container to tip at a greater angle.

In an earlier post I wrote that 4 sf containers tipped to 45 degree. However after putting a special 47c digital angle gauge on them the results were different.
My container 1 tips to 29degree but my NO number tips to 43 degree
If this step happened when it was a RW on the NO number container ( when it lost the number 2) then the angle of tip changes.
Therefore the container brace with step on the RW may not act as a stop and this will allow a 90 degree tilt especially if the axle hole is slightly bigger allowing a little side play.
If you look at photo 4 it is only a small amount of rough casting on the cross member that is stopping this from tipping to 90 degree. ( please note this is sf model and not exactly the same as Antonin’s.)

It would now be interesting for Antonin to confirm that his regular wheel model has container with NO number type that tips to 90degree and which points of the 3 above are relevant.

Bert