47b ice cream van with GPW

[DrJeep]

As these seem to be one of the fakers' favourites, I thought I'd seek your views on this 47b Commer ice cream van. It was a very cheap purchase in a group with a very worn Tippax refuse lorry and a reasonable Foden sugar lorry, from a seller in Gloucestershire who doesn't seem to have been buying from the Netherlands!

As you can see, it's quite worn.

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The front axle end looks good - a definite dimple.

front axle

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The back axle end doesn't have the dimple but does have a flat spot.

back axle

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And here are some more views of the axles.

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And the base

base

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The bad signs are:

- the base is bent - you can see this from the side, with the front looking a little high, so it could have been taken off
- the front axle is bent
- both axles are very clean, but on the other hand the base has definitely been cleaned with the axles in place
- the interior is suspiciously dust-free

The good signs are:

- the ends of the axles look good to me
- the axle webs haven't been drilled
- the holes in the wheels look normal and there's no damage to the wheels
- the whole vehicle is quite clean, so perhaps the dust-free interior is just because someone washed it out before selling
- the seller doesn't have any other rare matchbox
- at £4.99 plus postage for all three, it was too cheap for a faker to make any money on.

Anyway, I'd be happy to hear your views.

[GHOSTHUNTER]

Given the points and pictures I am happy the wheel to axle marriage is good. The wheels and axles to baseplate is good. The baseplate to body marriage is the problem. Had the base not been bent and the interior was dusty/dirty (as the outside playware suggests it should be), it would be a winner so for me I think it is a replacement base regardless of the model's source before you got it.

If someone is going to experiment with a base swap, try one which does not have rivets but a tight fitting clip/tabs method!!

Ghosthunter.

[johnboy]

I agree that the axles/wheels/base look ok. The base is in better condition compared to the body and a base like that could pop onto quite a decent body and make a good looking model quite easily and that's what someone would do to inflate the value or add a displayable model to their collection. Could it be someone making some running repairs and just marrying together parts from different models to complete one?

[nearlymint]

Great model and the axle ends look perfect, very nice find indeed.
J

[DrJeep]

Great model and the axle ends look perfect, very nice find indeed.
J

Thanks, Jason. I was very surprised to see it and that no-one else had noticed it - the main photograph didn't show the wheels very clearly but there was a very good base picture included.

The base is in better condition compared to the body and a base like that could pop onto quite a decent body and make a good looking model quite easily and that's what someone would do to inflate the value or add a displayable model to their collection. Could it be someone making some running repairs and just marrying together parts from different models to complete one?

The baseplate to body marriage is the problem. Had the base not been bent and the interior was dusty/dirty (as the outside playware suggests it should be), it would be a winner so for me I think it is a replacement base regardless of the model's source before you got it.

I must admit I hadn't thought about whether it might be a base swap - though the very clean interior might suggest it's been apart. The bend in the base is only slight, and I wonder why someone would swap a good grey-wheeled base to such a poor body - what could the donor have looked like?

Is the wear in the body inconsistent with the wear on the base? I seem to have accumulated rather a lot of these ice cream vans, so I've checked my collection. I've got a few with very worn bases, but also a couple with worn bodies but relatively unworn bases. These illustrate it well:

worn bodies

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good bases

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Both of these have thick paint which seems to chip more easily. The one on the left has the shorter man without legs, and he seems to have a firmer grip on the ice cream!

I don't think I can rule out the idea that this has had a base swap, but I'm happy that the base and wheels are good. My feeling is that it's probably the original body, but I don't suppose I'll ever know.

[johnboy]

Looking at those photos Glenn, it may well be an original pairing, either way it's a nice keeper.

[ClOwY]

Two different types of man ? (high arm low arm?)
Gary

[yellowfoden]

Hi Glenn,
I got out a couple of mine that have the perfect provenance with very similar characteristics and I do not think there has been any swapping. I also think it has probably been given a clean while intact to get rid of dirt or insects. I think if you were going to take it apart to clean you would give the inside windows a clean as well but these still look grubby. I can't see from the photo where it is bent but accidental stepping on it might also explain the slightly bent axle. For me the most important thing is the axle ends and wheels which look very good. Axle ends of this period were some of the best of the riveted or rounded type. I still prefer the crimped but very closely followed by late 50's early 60's riveted type.
I remember reading that a reason for going away from crimped axles to riveted was for safety reasons and while this is plausible for early 60's axle ends the later ones especially some found on 1968/69 models are by no means safe.
I tried to take a couple of pics of my 47's to show nice bases but worn bodies but can not get a crisp image, will try again with different camera tomorrow.
Out of interest what code have you put against this going by Nick's codes? Gary has noted the fact that the ice cream must be very heavy.
The photos above show excellent detail, great reference.

Bert

[ClOwY]

Gary

[DrJeep]

Two different types of man ? (high arm low arm?)

Hi Gary

There are at least three different interior mouldings: short man, tall man with brace behind driver's seat, tall man with brace behind passenger seat. There might also be a very short man. The short man has no legs (and really should clean out that van!):

short man

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The tall man has legs:

tall man

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There are also three different interior colours: tan, off-white, white. I think the tan is only on the early metallic blue models. I'm not sure whether the off white is in the non-metallic blue model too. Did I mention that I have a lot of these?

interior colours

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I got out a couple of mine that have the perfect provenance with very similar characteristics and I do not think there has been any swapping. I also think it has probably been given a clean while intact to get rid of dirt or insects. I think if you were going to take it apart to clean you would give the inside windows a clean as well but these still look grubby. I can't see from the photo where it is bent but accidental stepping on it might also explain the slightly bent axle. For me the most important thing is the axle ends and wheels which look very good.

thanks for looking at yours, Bert. The windows are pretty dirty and definitely haven't been out of the model. I think it was a good find!

Out of interest what code have you put against this going by Nick's codes?

The GPW model is code 14: grey wheels, snap-in base short roof stripes, short side stripes, tall man, brace behind driver's seat. The short man model seems to be unlisted: black 10x24 wheels, short roof decal, short side decal, short man, brace behind driver's seat. I can't see any reason why this version wouldn't exist. I think the short man interior is relatively unusual - if there were three interiors, you'd expect to see the short man in 1/3 of models. I have 12 of these and only one short man.