76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, Mystery solved?

[nickjones]

Hi all.
3 am last night and I was just going through my saved photo's folder to see if any were suitable for including in the book, I came across pictures of the 78 Triumph and the 80 Volkswagen box, I thought about the renumbering mystery models and by chance I thought I should have a look in the 40 year book.
Starting at the number 75 Thunderbird which was the last of the 1-75 and continued through them in the order that they were produced according to the 40 book. This is what I found.
mid 1959
75a Thunderbird.
6b Euclid - which replaced a very similar model.
9c Merryweatherv - also replaced a very similar model.
12b Land rover - replaced a very similar model.
15b Prime mover - replaced a very similar model
20b ERF flatbed truck - replaced a very similar model
24b Weatherill - replaced a very similar model
28b Thames compressor truck - replaced a very similar model
1960.
27c Cadillac - replaced Bedford Articulated truck - evidence exists that 27c was to be number 76
4c Triumph Motorcycle - replaced Massey Harris tractor - Triumph with number 78 exists.
17c Austin Taxi - replaced Bedford removals van. was to be numbered 77 (40 year book)
10c Foden sugar truck - replaced Scammell scarab 3 wheel truck
46b Guy Pickfords van - replaced Morris Minor
25b Volkswagen 1200 - Box for Volkswagen with number 80 exists
5c Routemaster bus - replaced a very similar model
13c Thames trader breakdown truck - replaced a very similar model
16b Super atlantic trailer - replaced a very similar model
31b Ford Fairlane - replaced a very similar model
37b Coke truck - replaced a very similar model
41b Jaguar - replaced a very similar model
1961
23c Bluebird caravan - replaced a very similar model
etc etc etc
So the mystery may not be solved 100% but we now know the 17c taxi, 10c Sugar truck and the 46b Guy Pickfords were the 77, 79 and 81

[Idris]

An interesting theory Nick, and one which I need to think about.
All I would like to add at this point is the idea that maybe the 46b was destined to be the new 17c. If so, why was the 17 slot given to the Taxi.....

[nickjones]

I did consider that Hugh.
I think the Cadillac was already ready to go into production so that was allocated the number 76.
Taxi, 2 castings, paint, trim and wheels, no decals, no windows, 77
The Triumph is just 2 castings, paint and wheels, no decals, no windows and no spray masks for trim so it was ready for production sooner than anticipated - 78
Foden, 3 castings, paint, trim, decals and wheels - 79
Volkswagen, 3 castings, paint, trim, windows and wheels - 80
Pickfords, 2 castings, paint, trim, plastic shutter, decals and wheels, no windows - 81
If you look at the amount of components needed it was all regular stuff for Lesney but the windows and decals would have added more time.
And if you look at the models that went into production before and after these six they all replaced similar models with the exception of these six.
Lesney at the time were adding 12 new models on average each year so basically one a month.

[Idris]

I’ve had a look at the 1960 release list and would agree that the 4c Triumph, the 10c Foden, 17c Taxi, the 25b Volkswagen, the 27c Cadillac, and the 46b Removals Van all stand out as being model replacements rather than upgrades.
Both the 4c and 27c have renumbering bosses whilst the 25b does not. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that the planned 77a will have a boss whilst the planned 79a might or might not have one. Any model with a planned number above 80 will not.
Since neither the 10c nor the 46b have renumbering bosses, this proves conclusively that 77a was to have been the Taxi. Furthermore, it indicates that the decision to limit the range to only 75 models was taken between the tooling of the 78a and 79a baseplates.
With the Taxi out of the equation, that leaves the 10c Foden and the 46b Removals Van. I am still very tempted by the idea that what became 46b was originally destined to be 17c, and would suggest that perhaps the 17b tooling was in such a bad state that, when it was decided not to extend the range beyond 75 models, the first available new casting – the Taxi – was pressed into service. Therefore, by default, the 10c Foden must have been planned as 79a. It is also possible that the enginering of the 46b flexible roller shutter (something new and very different for Lesney whose only previous experience with new-fangled plastic was in the form of hard wheels) caused significant delays in getting the model production ready, making the replacement of the 17b ever more urgent.
I would suggest that considering number allocations beyond 80 is pure speculation since we do not know how many models were at the planning stage when the range was limited to 75 models. (An inspection of the 1961 releases shows a number of likely candidates which are characterised, once again, by being replacements rather than upgrades.)
It is unclear why printed 80a boxes exist, but none for models 76 to 79. Since the 25c Volkswagen does not carry a remumbering boss, the implication is that the 80a boxes were printed prematurely, but quite why is anybody’s guess.

[Idris]

Of course, these new insights which Nick has given us (and which, with the exception of the identity of 81a, I’m more than happy to sign up to since I cannot fault his logic) do mean that two previously accepted “facts”, namely that the 7b Ford Anglia was earmarked to be 79a (which I think came from the 40 Years book), and that the 29b Austin Cambridge was originally destined to be 81a (I’m not sure that this was ever anything more than a rumour), are utter nonsense.

[SMS88]

Of course, these new insights which Nick has given us (and which, with the exception of the identity of 79a, I’m more than happy to sign up to since I cannot fault his logic) do mean that two previously accepted “facts”, namely that the 7b Ford Anglia was earmarked to be 79a (which I think came from the 40 Years book), and that the 29b Austin Cambridge was originally destined to be 81a (I’m not sure that this was ever anything more than a rumour), are utter nonsense.

Referring back to our previous in depth thread about this fascinating topic - the 7b Anglia would be the logical 79a because its number was cut on top of a previous number. I have no doubts that the 46b was intended to replace the 17b as the 1st planned 17c.
I see no evidence to support the 29b Austin Cambridge as 81a - just a nonsense rumour because as I wrote on the old thread, the 29b was a direct replacement for the 36a Austin Cambridge.
No signs of any number changes on the 10c Foden which makes it a candidate to have been originally 81 or perhaps even 79 if amore credible explanation for the plate under no 7 on the 7b can be found - which to quote myself from the previous thread - the Ford Anglia was Ford´s model to replace the Ford Prefect so the 7b may have originally been planned as 30b which makes the Foden a safe 79a if it wasnt the Anglia!

[nickjones]

Hi Hugh.
The 7b Anglia and the 29b Cambridge were both made a good six months or more after the models that I have listed, They are well out of the timeline.
The six models I listed were all made in close succession and the models made before and after all replaced similar vehicle types, ie car for car, flatbed lorry for flatbed lorry etc but these six did not.

[nickjones]

The Anglia could have had a number change because it replaced a model that was due for retirement which had to be speeded up due to a broken mold or possibly it was given the wrong number and had to be altered. either way it was made at least six months after the volkswagen which was going to be #80.

[Idris]

The 7b Anglia and the 29b Cambridge were both made a good six months or more after the models that I have listed, They are well out of the timeline.

Agreed.

[SMS88]

The Anglia could have had a number change because it replaced a model that was due for retirement which had to be speeded up due to a broken mold or possibly it was given the wrong number and had to be altered. either way it was made at least six months after the volkswagen which was going to be #80.

The 1:1 Ford Anglia 105E was on the roads in 1959 so there is no reason why Lesney couldnt have a toy out in 1960 unless, like the 57d (should have been 23e) trailer caravan which was substantially reworked, other models took priority in the release order. What we can say for certain about the 25b,7b and 29b is that all 3 were popular small family cars to a larger near identical scale than all previous car models (except 43a) so they were clearly planned at the same time. Looking at the casting seam across the front of the 7b, there is actually no evidence to show that the 7b could not have been planned with an opening bonnet 25b style which was deleted to cut costs at planning stage!