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Greetings friends,
Over the course of recent weeks there have been a couple of threads that have surfaced within which meaty conversation has occurred detailing our beloved 69b Hatra Tractor Shovel.
There was this thread within George's Casting Show:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1731

And then this thread that came up here in the 1-75 forum at the tail end of last year. It began as a discussion of #72 Fordson Tractors but worked its way ultimately into the discussion of a particular red-wheeled yellow body 69b Hatra Tractor Shovel.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1154&hilit=differential%E2%80%A6

This all surfaced during a stretch where I really wasn't visiting the forum with any regularity and unfortunately my absence ended up contributing to a bit of inconvenience.
During the most recent time when Charlie offered this model on ebay I made the purchase. I've made a number of purchases from Charlie across the years and in my mind I believed if something was offered up from Charlie it was beyond question authentic. Based on my previous purchases and Charlie's general reputation within our collecting community I assumed he was both trustworthy and knowledgeable.

Now that I've had the model in hand and have taken some decent photographs I felt compelled after communicating with Idris to share my experience to add better clarity among our wider collecting community. So here are some photographs.
First of all, I had no questions whatsoever with regard to the authenticity of the yellow body paint or the base rivets. In fact I didn't even photograph the base as I didn't see anything noteworthy there.







It was the rounded axle ends that raised a red wheeled red flag for me. With the naked eye the axle ends seemed reasonable but with a little magnification I had some concerns. I had four other Hatra Shovel models on the shelf for comparison and all of them have rounded axle ends with a central flat or concave spot. Most but not all of the axle ends have a linear sunburst pattern radiating out from that center. In looking at the red wheeled pictures you see that these axle ends lack that linear sunburst pattern radiating our away from the center. But then when you look at the picture from the common yellow-wheeled model you'll see that some of those also lack that sunburst pattern.







The real kiss of death for my confidence came when I compared axle ends in the profile view.
Both red wheel axle ends lacked a well-defined crisp sharp mushroom cap profile while even my playworn common models had that sharpness and definition.







In the end I concluded that in my opinion this was a modified model.
The good news is that Charlie was very responsive to my opinions and concerns. He agreed to and has indeed followed through with a complete refund of both my purchase price and shipping expenses. Charlie told me that he's had the model for some time and had always accepted it as authentic. Based on my previous purchase experiences with Charlie I'm willing to accept his word. But..... based on this experience with this red-wheeled 69b my faith in Charlie's assessment skills has faded. I would NOT hesitate to buy from Charlie again but in the future I would want to examine any rare or hard-to-find examples in hand before pulling the trigger.

I'm aware there has been discussion of how this model was offered multiple times on ebay and there will those among you who will insist I'm naive or in denial here. I understand that quite often where one sees smoke there is often a fire and it is largely because of those concerns that I wanted to share the photos I captured to better alert the collecting community with regard to my concerns with this particular model.

One other thing...
I know Numi has raised the question as to whether or not Lesney ever made a red-wheeled yellow-bodied 69b. Great question to be asked! Thank you Numi. While I can't say I've ever held one in my hand I've got to say I believe they do exist.
I once had the pleasure and privilege of spending a day with our beloved Tinman within the comfortable confines of his palatial Florida estate. We spent the better part of a day with small pieces of vintage era Lesney love in our hands. JP had a red-wheeled yellow 69b that day but he quickly set it aside as a "fake" model. I looked at it later and quite clearly it had been modified. The modifications were not as well hidden as they are on this model that I returned.
Having said that I seem to remember that JP quite clearly believed in the authenticity of this variation. I believe that the Hatra is one of his favorite castings and that somewhere along the line he had owned a red wheeled yellow example he believed was authentic.
But then my memory is millimeters long and I'll trust that the Tinman will shine brighter illumination on this matter.

Greg,

Firstly, nice to see you back here. Secondly, I feel your disappointment with this Hatra. Your excellent photos and summary lead me to the same conclusion as you about this particular Hatra - those axle ends look nothing like any I have ever seen on a common Lesney model.

I think the existence of genuine examples of this variation is likely as you suggest. There are plenty of examples of crossover mixes of model components when colour changes occur, particularly in the late RW period this item is from. It would be great to see a genuine example documented here.

Cheers,
Gavin

Thanks Greg for a superb lesson on Lesney axle profiles. It is not uncommon to find single mis-struck Lesney axle ends on some of the models in our collections. You have brought up the tooling marks that can vary if the tool quits rotating while 'on the job'. As you have also pointed out, the 'flat' is still the critical area of the later riveted axles, so comparison of like era models as you have done is important to answer questions on any axle end in question.
I now feel the need to point out that riveted axle ends on earlier era Lesneys do not have this typical flat on their end, they were typically rounded with the tooling marks eminating from their centers. I hope Forum members do not inundate us with 'Is it Real?' questions and posts as they use their electron microscopes on all their axle ends today.
I agree with your findings Greg, and I appreciate my friend Charlie's 'no hassle' reaction to your concerns. Life is good. Thanks for Posting your pictures and info here and keeping us updated. Dick

thanks for the info Greg...sorry you lost out on a red hubbed hatra

I have checked my 69b Hatra with red hubs, it seems that the axles are OK, I am enclosing some photos
Antonin

Nice to know they are out there Antonin, I do not have this one in my collection. J

That one does look like a KEEPER Antonin! Thanks for sharing it.

I sold my red hub yellow Hatra directly to a fellow collector. It was indeed real.

I didn't know this at the time, but he had a history of obtaining rare models from collectors he befriended. He would make a deal that seemed fair for the both of us and obtain the model.

What I didn't know was that he would be showing the photos I provided to his potential customer(s). If I sold him a model for $500.00, he would get $1,000.00 from his client. Sometimes he would get nearly three times as much. I've discovered he did the same thing with several other collectors. I do know where several of the models I sold him ended up but not the Hatra.

I posted this comment about that auction:

Fame and reputation carry significant weight with collectors and that drives the prices higher and (at the same time) increases the buyers comfort that they are getting a genuine item. Could a famous collector/author sell off some questionable items for a premium price? Yes. Could his/her status ease the concerns of buyers? Yes. Do people who hit the skids and hard times relent to temptation of easy money? Sadly, we see this often in life.

The model should always be the deciding factor, not the fame of the seller. By the same token, let the merits of the model determine if it's genuine or not (even if the seller has a sterling reputation) as mistakes can be made by anyone.

That Hatra was not the first model he's had returned as a fake and I suspect it won't be the last. I remember hearing of him looking at one of my reproduction reverse color 13d wreckers. He thought it was real until he picked it up and saw the drilled base rivets. He should have been able to figure out it wasn't real even before he turned it over.