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Now where have I seen this before ? 331110609480

Do you mean the whole model, or just the glazing unit?

I thought he had a couple of these ?

Yes, when he decided to destroy the pre-production model last year by drilling out the roof rivets in order to remove the glazxing unit (hence my first comment), he let on to someone here that he already had several 23c Caravans with windows. (I can't remember whether it was three or five that he had.)
Given last year's happenings, what would concern me with this one is whether it actually left the factory with windows! (As the saying goes, it takes a lifetime to build a reputation, but only seconds to ruin it!)

I would not touch this model with a ten foot pole. He KILLED his reputation when drilled out and removed that window insert (and then sold off the original model for pennies on the dollar). Where is that window now? Is it sitting inside this trailer that's currently for sale? Who knows! One thing for sure is that it's got to turn up somewhere.

The whole concept of using ebay as free global advertising and then selling everything outside of ebay is in itself dishonest. His actions have become too eccentric for me to have any trust in his sales or his judgement. Sorry, but's my opinion.

I think it is about time Ebay stopped the continuous listings. I search on several things, one being 'highest first' and am truly peed off about his same listings week after week taking over the top slots due to the silly high prices. I have to trawl through pages of endless listings saying 'From Germany' - just free advertising I reckon.

Idris wrote:what would concern me with this one is whether it actually left the factory with windows!

Well, I discussed this topic with Hardy last year, and according to his reasoning (which I find very logical and tend to agree with) no 23c examples ever left the factory (as regular production items) with window glazing fitted.

A small quantity of glazing units were produced with the intention of them being fitted in the 23c, but they never were, as it was decided to issue the model without window glazing before the first examples were issued to the market. Those examples which have window glazing received it by private unauthorized actions of people who had the chance to obtain such glazing units, i.e. they are a sort of "lunchtime specials".

So the glazing units themselves are genuine pre-production items, but the whole models in which they have been fitted are not. It is therefore considered OK to remove such a glazing unit from a badly chipped model and fit it into a mint one (which is easily done because the baseplate of this model can be removed and re-fitted easily).

I was told that the particular glazing unit which was discussed last year was fitted into a mint example of the model which was then traded with an unnamed fellow collector for some other pre-production item. I do not know whether the example offered on eBay now is the same one or not.

Bit of a grey area really and each to there own, I agree that the windows are pre pro and should be sold as such ie: mint caravan with added pre pro windows & not as a whole pre pro item (if that's what he's doing ?)The original caravan that was discussed had crimped axles and was a genuine pre pro and was sold cheaply to me and I have since traded it on to a proper collector and fellow member who will cherish it for what it truly is regardless of condition. Having said that if this model being offered up here is the real deal then what a super cool item.

tjlglass wrote:The original caravan that was discussed had crimped axles and was a genuine pre pro...

Just to make that perfectly clear: in Hardy's opinion that model was not a genuine pre-pro. As he told me he thought the axle had been crimped by somebody by hand after the wheels had come loose due to heavy play.

I am not in a position to judge whether this assessment is valid or not, but I can confirm that this is Hardy's view of that model. And this explains why he sold it on cheaply after he had removed the glazing unit.

ChFalkensteiner wrote:

tjlglass wrote:The original caravan that was discussed had crimped axles and was a genuine pre pro...

Just to make that perfectly clear: in Hardy's opinion that model was not a genuine pre-pro. As he told me he thought the axle had been crimped by somebody by hand after the wheels had come loose due to heavy play.

I am not in a position to judge whether this assessment is valid or not, but I can confirm that this is Hardy's view of that model. And this explains why he sold it on cheaply after he had removed the glazing unit.

IF the rivits had been properly spun to retain the glazing in the 23c Tim bought then it was a genuine pre-pro and I seem to remember they were.It was also the correct early type door hing and tow hook.It was a playworn toy, however the axles were crimped is a red herring,it all hinges on glazing rivits being properly spun on a Lesney crimping machine.
Hardy is a businessman and if he valued his reputation then it was a sloppy to bugger that playworn pre-pro and then bung it on ebay for the whole collector community to goggle over. Now we all know with 100% confidence that he has re-combined genuine Lesney parts on at least this one occasion - as tinman & idris say now who knows what other models have been similarly ´´restored´´