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I was willing to give the old folks the benefit of the doubt (as indicated in my first post on the subject). I only looked at the information displayed in the post and never went off the forum to look at anything. After auction photos were posted to the forum, I got more interested and did a little digging on my own. It didn't take too much looking around before I changed my opinion about the "old folks" and I think "old fakers" fits much better.

There were too many disturbing patterns in their activity for them to be honest. I think as more of their goods gets inspected by people with an educated eye, we will find far more tampering.

Dick, I think it's time to put the old folks on the fakers/cheaters list and move on to greener pastures in collecting.

Sadly, some of their items sold for top dollar and even beyond. It looks like some people have paid very dearly for some fakes. Too late to warn them but we can warn future buyers to stay away from their auctions. I call for a boycott of all their auctions.

kwakers wrote:With Numi having warned us of scratched windows already, it seems that there is now some solid evidence as to what opinion someone had of one of these rare models 'in hand'. My question to Nick's friend is very simple: why the change of mind about the model after they had quickly left Positive Feedback on that cheaper amber windowed Wrecker? Their Positive Feedback was: "Great transaction. thanks"
Could Numi be right in saying that people who receive Lesneys are so excited over them that they leave positive Feedback most of the time before they examine the models closely? I really did not agree, or even understand what Numi meant there, but maybe now Nick's friend can confirm the point Numi was making? kwakers

I was under the impression that once positive feedback had been left, the transaction was closed and it was impossible to raise any kind of complaint or request a refund. The fact that Nick's friend is now returning the model would seem to imply that this is not the case, or it is merely that the Two Old Folks are doing him a favour?

Perhaps his feedback was part of the deal in his being able to return the model without any fuss from the seller. I.E. If you return my money, I will not slam you in the feedback.
It is a question we would have to ask the buyer.

The buyer reads the forum, If they want to reply I'm sure they will

When I did a complete 30 page overview two months ago of these 'Two Old Folk's' Feedback Joe, absolutely no alarm bells were set off. Their 'Rare' sales had not closed yet, but they looked like a dependable source for an 'Old' collection sell-off.
Upon Jason's questions after the amber windowed Wreckers sold, Numi joined us in a manner I have never seen from her before. In her accusatory posts she referred to a SPW VW 34B Van the couple had offered that was 'fake', but would give us no Item number or link to it's two year old (?) sale. Any 'Simple Search' I could do on them turned up a very clean Seller of old household items. Numi's secrecy seemed odd to me because by asking for details on that long ago listed SPW VW, and also for the source of the two color Hatra she mentioned but BLANKED OUT in that heated E Bay message to 'Two Old Folks', Numi reacted that I had put HER on trial?? Rubbish..... My Caveman computer skills are minimal, plus I do not keep old files on E Bay Sellers with questionable offerings, so I was keenly interested in learning more about why she came in so strong and certain about this pair. I just needed facts for their final conviction, no personal offense to you was ever intended Senior Detective.
As Nick's friend received a 'Fake' made up Amber windowed Wrecker, and I am certain the too-light purple RW #67 VW was made up as well, things are not looking good for my AARP defense Team on 'Two Old Folks'. If you feel comfortable on listing them as 'Fakers' Joe, two strikes will have to be enough to do that for now. I am not impressed with straight on axle end shots used for conviction, so needed to hear and see a bit more. I would still like to keep an eye on their future sales, and also ask others with more detailed information on their past sales to continue exposing these two.
I will not Boycott Two Old Folks sales at all Joe, I am still, as I had previously said here, personally very interested in following this Post up and even in buying from this 'Old' couple now that Nick has given us this latest fake Wrecker info. kwakers

Dick, if you are only looking at what they sell, then you miss the whole picture. First, I must point to a statement in their auctions that is in large bold text:
"We have downsized and are in the process of liquidating hubby's toys."
Starting with some of his "Hard to Find" pieces.

People who are liquidating a collection and downsizing do not continue to buy models (much less duplicates of the same model). It's the purchases and specific models they have purchased (combined with what they have sold) that tells a far more complete story.

As to giving positive feedback on a refund, I've done it too. The seller quickly refunds my purchase price and my postage costs ... I leave them positive feedback as they have treated me well. Feedback judges how well the seller treats you: How quickly did they answer your emails, how quickly did they ship, how well did they pack, how simple and fast was the refund process and so on. It's not designed as a fraud notification device. Seems the Old Folks did offer a full refund and did so fairly quickly. That's good service and so they received good feedback.

While ebay's feedback system can be used to alert other members of potential fraud, under ebay's guidelines such comments should only be left if you can not resolve your issues and get your money refunded from the seller. Leaving feedback outside of ebay's guidelines is grounds for sellers to get that feedback removed and many of the worst sellers do have feedback removed.

This is why you can't go on feedback. This is why so many fakers/fraudsters have excellent feedback. Offer fast and full refunds on your fake items and you get good feedback (or can get it quickly removed) and can later resell the same item to a less suspecting buyer.

These discussions are where the fakers/fraudsters are discovered, outed and where other collectors learn about them. Not in ebay feedback. I see ebay members placing far too much trust in ebay feedback when it comes to buying fakes. Remember, that feedback is about the transaction and if the item doesn't meet expectations, it becomes about how quickly the seller refunds your money or makes good with a replacement product.

Bottom line, ebay feedback is not there as a fraud notification device!

Fraudster/Faker discussions and identification ... that's one important part of what discussion forums are all about.

via email from the buyer of the amber windowed wrecker.

Yes, I did give them positive feedback. They were very nice about the return. Paid for shipping. Refunded the money. No questions asked.

nickjones wrote:via email from the buyer of the amber windowed wrecker.

Yes, I did give them positive feedback. They were very nice about the return. Paid for shipping. Refunded the money. No questions asked.

And thereafter they more than likely re-listed it again as a Very rare original Amber window wrecker, I'll bet!!

motorman wrote:

nickjones wrote:via email from the buyer of the amber windowed wrecker.

Yes, I did give them positive feedback. They were very nice about the return. Paid for shipping. Refunded the money. No questions asked.

And thereafter they more than likely re-listed it again as a Very rare original Amber window wrecker, I'll bet!!

Sure, why not. They will hope for a more innocent and unsuspecting buyer next time.

It's hard to prove fraud right now. The Seller can claim they purchased the item in this condition and that they have faith in the item being real. It's just a difference of opinion between the sellers and the most recent buyer. If they sell it again and refund on it again, it's still not fraud ... just a difference of opinion.

Because it's a difference of opinion at this point, ebay can't do much, feedback won't protect potential buyers. The only thing that will help is educating collectors on how to buy, what to look for and point out the known fakers and fraudsters.

Has Kwakers chosen to adopt the 5th-amendment?
numi