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Matchboom wrote:Can't wait to read an advanced demonstration about the meaning / chronology of these wheel numbers. Is there a grid giving a time frame for each letter ? Dreaming...
Ford Mustang 08A - White body - Red interior : 17 - 9 - 35 - 25.
Ford Mustang 08A - Burnt orange body - Red interior : 8 - 6 - 1 - 44.
Ford Mustang 08A - Burnt orange body - Ivory interior : 50 - 37 - 26 - 44.
Ford Mustang 08A - Tomato red body - Ivory interior : B9 - B7 - B13 - B35. This one looks very interesting, with other letters and numbers half-hidden (not half-erased) on each inner wheel cos' too close to the center !! Half-hidden ones located at 9 and 3 o'clock when final letters and numbers are put together at 12 o'clock.

These wheel numbers from white Mustangs point to a clear 1969 origin with simple numbers without suffix or prefix letters - alos nice to know they duplicate numbers on the 11.2mm wheel moulds whereas other sizes may NOT as far as we have seen. Does the Tomato mustang with Bxx wheels have the inner lip on its wide wheels or are they smooth like earlier cars?

I feel the same "sub-range concept" to use the words of "Idris", is also coming across within that 1969, 2nd edition pocket catalogue, because of the way the models that are or will be 'Superfast' versions, are not displayed with any prominence.

But that idea had been changed since the printing of that catalogue and this, the next catalogue... ...the contents of which also make for interesting viewing.

GHOSTHUNTER.

Staying with 1969, it is interesting looking in the mail order catalogues from the U.S., the first target market for 'Superfast' models.

The Two main mail order companies in the U.S, were (still in business today), J.C. Penny and Sears Roebuck, both used to issue catalogues of their product lines. The Sears company had their normal catalogue and then a special Christmas edition they called...'Sears Wish Book' to bring together Christmas gifts and toys additional to their regular stock. This 'Wish Book' was issued twice a Year during the 'Spring' and 'Fall' seasons which sadly can not be defined to specific Months, it varied from state to state, but essentially the 'Spring' edition would have been issued in March, May or June, the 'Fall' edition in Sept, Oct or Nov of any given Year.

The picture below is from the 1969, Sears 'Wish Book'... ...and we see an artists's impression of what would be the track set, number SF-4 Twin Loop set with Two cars. The cars at bottom right are...

Lotus Europa.
Lamborghini Marzal.
BMC 1800 Pininfarina.
VW 1600 TL.

These Four cars are being sold as a separate set of 'Superfast' cars.

The description for these cars says Lamborghini Miura, but if you look at the Two cars to the left of the set by the Finish Flags, the back car is the Iso Griffo and the front car to me more looks like the Ford GT.

No other 'Superfast' items appear in this catalogue, only the normal 'Regular' wheeled models marketed by Sears as sets over the next Five pages.

Given what I have said about the issue dates of these catalogues, the one above must have been issued around the 'Fall' period of September 1969, possibly August but no earlier, making it conceivable Lesney only sent artwork over to the U.S. to show what was coming within the next few Months.

GHOSTHUNTER.

SMS88 wrote:Does the Tomato mustang with Bxx wheels have the inner lip on its wide wheels or are they smooth like earlier cars?

No lip, flat contact patch on wheels, like the other Stangs.

SMS88 wrote:nice to know they duplicate numbers on the 11.2mm wheel moulds

Numbers and letters may not even be the same !! To me they look different, with half hidden ones being engraved in reverse, but you be the judges...

Matchboom wrote:

SMS88 wrote:Does the Tomato mustang with Bxx wheels have the inner lip on its wide wheels or are they smooth like earlier cars?

No lip, flat contact patch on wheels, like the other Stangs.

Here is a 'Tomato' Ford Mustang in the 1970 Sears 'Wish Book' as part of a diorama to sell this grand car parking tower...
...and here it is closer.
There is also a Red Ferrari 'Superfast' by the fuel pump and a Light purple Pontiac GTO 'Superfast' in the Yellow cage in the parking tower.

Going back to my note about when these Christmas catalogues were issued, the one above would be out around Sept, Oct 1970.

GHOSTHUNTER.

Matchboom wrote:

SMS88 wrote:nice to know they duplicate numbers on the 11.2mm wheel moulds

Numbers and letters may not even be the same !! To me they look different, with half hidden ones being engraved in reverse, but you be the judges...

The half hidden numbers imply that these moulds were 1st cut with a much smaller centre boss and the design was revised.

If you look at the numbers on the wider wheels they are smaller and this seems to be because of the smaller available surface to stamp them on so this could indicate to us the exact point when the wheels became the wider type and going back to the 'Tomato' Mustang in the 1970 'Wish Book' picture, does it look like the wheels are of the wide type, if so, did the Red model go straight to wide wheels, missing out on the narrow wheels!

This fits in with the White Mustang having those wheels posted by "Matchboom" where they have Two stampings and we know of the existance of White Mustangs with narrow (for a short while), then wide 'Superfast' wheels, shown below.
The above pictures were saved from the 'BeFora' site, so if any member recognizes them, please let me know who posted them originally, thank's.
The base seems to be missing the (A) symbol behind the tow guide and the wheels are smooth hollow type, is this a 'Pre-Pro' model?
While we have no way of telling the actual numbers on the above models, there is a good chance they will be matching those noted for us by "Matchboom".

GHOSTHUNTER.

Earlier I questioned the date of this little advert "SMS88" originally posted as part of his 'BeFora' postings... I was able to read the text along the bottom of this advert and it says...FRED BRONNER CORPORATION A DIVISION OF LESNEY PRODUCTS & Co. Ltd. The last section is just the address in America. From February 2nd, 1970, Fred Bronner Corporation was renamed as...LESNEY PRODUCTS CORPORATION, so while this has not put a specific date on the advert above, it is still either 1969 or 1970! it is nice to know when his company became more integrated into the Lesney empire.

GHOSTHUNTER.

I have done a diagram highlighting what I think has been happening with the 'Double Numbers' wheels.
My diagram has the original number stamped onto the tool area for the narrow wheel. If the tooling was modified to make this into the wider wheel, the first stamping (in Black on the diagram), is half covered with the larger axle housing (in Red on the diagram), as part of the new design, so the the new stamping (in Green on the diagram), has had to be smaller.

Given this is possibly what they have had to do, they might as well have started from scratch and made new tooling for the wider wheel!

GHOSTHUNTER.