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Batterseaboy wrote:I would like to know if any other unusual castings have come to light, can any more history from the factory be found. Is there much factory history in the public domain

We would all like to know if any other unusual castings have come to light, but sadly they don't come to light very often. We rely on members coming to the forum with them just as you have and you may in fact be the first, even if this has taken a very long time to happen, we welcome such an event.

Factory history is very limited. There would have been tool ledgers, drawings and such of models in production and drawings of models waiting to be released.

Once the flow machines (the production lines if you prefer), were in operation they would be recording how many batches of models they have made, but not specific totals because it was expected the models would be kept in production for many Years as has been proven by the numbers of variations found on so many of the models we collect here in the forum.

With castings like the one you have shown in your first post coming to the forum, you are bringing it into the public domain and we all have something to say about it based on our past experience and hard earned knowledge and we will be responsible for logging factory history based on our findings.

If only we had ex factory workers coming to the forum we might get some definite answers but sadly they don't and don't think we have not tried to get them here, because we have!

Ghosthunter.

Malibu wrote:

Martin Avis wrote:Here's a thought.

The Thunderbird was retired from the range in mid '65 to make way for the Berlinetta. At exactly the same time the 56b Fiat was introduced - with a very similar roof rack.

Could it be that the production team simply used the old Thunderbird dies to experiment with roof rack designs before committing to the production version on the 56b?

mb75ii.jpg

Martin[/quo]te

Hi,
I was thinking about this possibility a while and I think it does not make sense.
If the one tooling was in use until the Fiat came out there was not enough time to change the mould of the Thunderbird, try if it works with a roof rack as well, decide to do it on the mould of the Fiat as well, change this mould too and in addition do a new mould for the plastik luggage.
This would have taken quite a long time. (I think about 3 to 6 months)
I think the Fiat mould and the luggage mould was finished a while before the model appered on the market and at this time the Thunderbird was still in production.

I might be wrong it is just my thought about this matter.

Stephan

Three days would be more than enough for all the needed modifications and test casting. In the past, we've seen casting modifications happen in rapid succession.

I think the "test bed" idea has more traction than anything else. I can't imagine how this hideous roof rack could possibly be a wanted addition to a Sports Car. This is the second Generation T-Bird sports car, it's expansion in size to a four seat model pushed its sales to a record setting level. It was the first model line to make Car Of The Year (before this only manufacturers made car of the year and not individual models). Style and clean lines defined this car.

The roof design of the this model and of the Fiat are indeed very similar and it makes perfect sense to use the T-bird mold as a test. There are plenty of issues with molds being modified to allow the castings to release with less problems. Why not get on top of a possible problem before it happens instead of afterwards.

All of the older molds were discarded or scraped and it was also common to recycle (melt down) test run and trial products. What is unusual is that this casting (and more, if what I read is true) survived the testing/trial. It's entirely possible that this process was used for other design tests and that this casting is the only remaining proof of such trials taking place.

fixer wrote:just to upset the apple cart could it be a Nik Stil style prepro

No! He has shown no experience or examples of metal casting. His castings seem to be limited to resins and acrylics at this time.

Hideous is a bit strong Tinman, square bird is the common parlance for a 60 thunderbird I can,t buy the test mule idea simply because Lesney were more proffesional than a rehash they would of done a test from scratch not a bodge think about it

Batterseaboy wrote:Hideous is a bit strong Tinman, square bird is the common parlance for a 60 thunderbird I can,t buy the test mule idea simply because Lesney were more proffesional than a rehash they would of done a test from scratch not a bodge think about it

Have a look at this thread. Even after all these years, they still can't get a sump to form properly first-time round!
Also, what would "...a test from scratch..." consist of? How about...er....making test castings of a roof-rack on the roof of a model?

Batterseaboy wrote:Hideous is a bit strong Tinman, square bird is the common parlance for a 60 thunderbird I can,t buy the test mule idea simply because Lesney were more proffesional than a rehash they would of done a test from scratch not a bodge think about it

There's plenty of examples of Lesney "rehashing" existing models, drivers, specific parts, interiors, windows, decals and labels for tests. They were frugal to excess and hated to waste anything. Far cheaper to rehash than start from scratch and Lesney was all about keeping costs down.

IMHO, the roof rack looks hideous and out of scale. For me it ruins the model. I seriously can not see this as anything other then a test bed. Had they made this modification, it would have killed off the model and been a total waste to time/effort. The model would no longer be two-tone and go to a one color paint scheme or else Lesney would have to design an all new mold for the mask. The latter would compound that waste of time and money for a model at the end of it's life. No way can I see Lesney putting on this rack, pushing the old model back to a monochrome paint job and expecting to extend the life of a model. When Lesney introduced this model in 1960, Ford went to a 3rd gen body style the very next year in 1961. Lesney was lucky to have a five year run and I sure don't see a large, out of scale roof rack and monochrome paint helping the model to sell better at some five years after the real car passed into history.

Tinman wrote:

fixer wrote:just to upset the apple cart could it be a Nik Stil style prepro

No! He has shown no experience or examples of metal casting. His castings seem to be limited to resins and acrylics at this time.

just to clarify it was an off the cuff remark as nothing else seemed acceptable to our original poster

Batterseaboy wrote:

fixer wrote:just to upset the apple cart could it be a Nik Stil style prepro

Was he around Enfield Pageant of motoring in 1983

and who knows where he spent his holidays

I just saw Paul Carr up in Chicago at the October Kane County Toy Show. I know that Paul's years at Lesney came much later than what we're discussing here but he told me in Chicago that he retired from his job and that he's spending time these days visiting with former Lesney employees to record their stories so that he is better equipped with new material to share when he is invited to speak at different collector gatherings. He told me for instance, of a man/former employee he visited with who gave him an original mould/tool for the 12a Land Rover. I'm wondering if Paul might know of someone, a former employee who might be able to look at Milton's photos and offer any factory-insider input.

Nonetheless, it is a very interesting piece of Lesney history Milton, and I'm glad you chose to share it here.

It looks good to me scale looks OK Colour I,m sure could still have been two tone

Could some one give me a timeline for the casting in pictures without marker pen an glass just so I can see what all the hullabaloo is about

Some useful information here...viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4370#p47417

Ghosthunter.