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...and one has also just been found on a 47b.

Idris wrote:...and one has also just been found on a 47b.

To save you having to go all the way through the posting in the link above I have given a quick summary and photos below

This one is Nick Jones code 5 - sorry about the quality/distortion of the photos - curvature of the van base is caused by a magnifying glass - colour is not metallic blue just the standard solid blue lightened by the use of photo to bring out the detail on the axle end

Sebastian

Well done, te thread lives on,lets see how many we can find this year.
Gary

Idris wrote:I'm somewhat surprised at the way this thread has come to an abrupt halt. At one stage it looked like these three-way crimps were relatively common, but with the total stuck stubbornly on six know examples, the pendulum now appears to be swinging the other way.

Whilst it had initially come to a halt I had taken the time to look back over three collections in the past three months focussing on 1959 to 1965 castings but with no joy in finding the same three way axle end. My eyes have only just recovered having looked at over 450 models . I did find a few that had unusual finishes but not what I consider what we are chasing here.

Since more models from different time periods have come to light I have been giving a bit of thought to how these three-way axle ends may have come about.
It is unlikely that they were all done at the same time as not all four models have one distinct crossover point.

We also know that there is one 31b that has two axles done this way but all others have only one axle end has been done on any model presented so far.
So if it were the case that a model got missed from being riveted (rounded over) and was discarded before being boxed it could be that these were picked up, wheels and axles fitted and then hand finished with the three way end.
They could then be put back into packing line.
It is also possible that they did not then go back into the system of being boxed but went home with staff.
The 31b (around 1960), 41b (around 1964 ) and the 47b (around 1963) had the wheels and axles fitted to the base plate prior to the base fitted to the bodies. Therefore the base plates with wheels fitted could be in storage for days, weeks or months.
The 63a is a different type casting for the wheels and axle process as some base plates were fitted pre or post painting, meaning process for fitting wheels changed.

Earlier in the thread Glenn mentions the 31b of mine and Gary’s as being different times but in actual fact they have the same crimson/maroon base plate and therefore could have had the wheels and axles done at the same time then put into storage bins, but used at different times when fitted to body castings.

With any model found to have an axle end missed rounding over, it may not be have been possible to go back to the normal riveting station because they may have been set up for a different model.

So the period extends now with the finding of the 41b (thanks Glenn) and 47b (thanks Sebastian ) (great photos gents ) could now be between 1959 and 1964.

31b yellow crimson base plate 1960-1962 models made 1960 to 1963
31b green crimson base plate 1960 to 1962 models made 1960 to 1963
33b Ford Zepher 6 MkIII right rear axle end, made 1963 posted by Sebastian 31 May 2019
41b wire wheels 1964
42b Studebaker January 1965 model made 1964 to 1969 . Finding added 5 March 2019 by Glenn - drjeep
47b code 5 about 1963 models made 1963 to 1967
63a coarse tread count most likely 1960 to 1961 models made 1959 to 1961
63a fine tread count most likely 1961 models made 1959 to 1961
65a Jaguar 3.4 litre Mk 1 rounded axles in metallic blue circa 1960 added by Sven 26 May 2019

From what could have been dismissed as dodgy axle ends early in this thread, it is now developing to hopefully one day reveal the exact how and why. I certainly would like to ultimately learn of the tool or method used to create the three way end.

Bert
edited 1 June 2019 33b added

Thank you Bert for doing the research on the 3 way axel, very time consuming I should think.

George T.

This gets more and more perplexing: in addition to it sometimes being only one and sometimes both axle ends, we now have a widely divergent timelines for the models concerned.
The idea that this was a trial no longer seems credible. Bert's idea of these axle ends being some kind of remedial work on defective models is both ingenious and plausible. My only concern would be whether Lesney would actual bother reworking defective models. Was the incident rate so high that was really worth the effort?

Idris wrote:This gets more and more perplexing: in addition to it sometimes being only one and sometimes both axle ends, we now have a widely divergent timelines for the models concerned.
The idea that this was a trial no longer seems credible. Bert's idea of these axle ends being some kind of remedial work on defective models is both ingenious and plausible. My only concern would be whether Lesney would actual bother reworking defective models. Was the incident rate so high that was really worth the effort?

I think there are three possibilities:

- an experiment or trial
- some sort of operator or tool error
- Bert's clever idea of a separate machine to fix poorly-finished axles away from the production line

I've looked again at all the pictures and while they are very similar, I think it's also still possible that they weren't all formed the same way - Gary's original axle seems much sharper and more defined than some of the others, including my Jaguar. It's also possible that this was initially an experiment and subsequently the experimental machine was used as Bert suggests. However, while I much prefer both of the other options, my feeling is that it's most likely to have been some sort of error with the tool.

DrJeep wrote: However, while I much prefer both of the other options, my feeling is that it's most likely to have been some sort of error with the tool.

Could it be that the tool used to round the typical axel end was a 3 bladed tool which both spun and was depressed when activated. If the crimping machine had a belt to spin the tool and a different mechanism to depress the tool, then, occasionally, the machine might throw a belt or break a belt after the activation button had been depressed; this might stop the tool from spinning but not stop the downward stroke; resulting in the tool hitting the axel end and leaving an imprint of the tool end in the axel end.

The operator would notice the broken belt; stop work and replace the belt.
this type machine may have been used for years, which would explain a few 3 part crimps in various models over multiple years as well as why most are only on one axel.

The problem with it being a tool malfunction is that the result still works. The proposal is that a correctly working peening tool rotated and moved up and down. However, what these three-way axle ends show is that the wheels still stayed on without the normal peening. That being so, why would Lesney have continued with the rotational element? Wouldn't it have been simpler (and therefore cheaper) to have rolled out the three-way ends across all models?

The normal peened axle-end is created by a hollow tube that just about slots over the end of the axle rod. Something enters this tube with enough force to create a concave surface on the end of the axle rod. Something like a centre punch or a slow drill bit. This is replaced by another tool like a centre punch but with a concave tip and with pressure will flatten the concave end to a convex end. The steel used is soft enough for this process to be done fairly swiftly without bending the the rest of the axle rod (something we often see on home made peened axles).

I am not sure what creates the 'Stirations' or fine grooves on the finished end but the reverse of this finiah must be inside the pressing tool, the tool that makes the axle-end convex and deemed as finished.

The picture below shows an unfinished axle-end with an over drilled concave surface going far too deep into the end of the axle rod. This axle and wheel assembly is on a colour trial Yesteryear model so the final correct peened axle-end has not been completed but it gives you an idea of the process.



How the three-way axle-end can be created out of all this I do not know but the fact we see levels of depth with those three-way finishes does suggest the tool responcible is adjustable, just look at Gary's first picture compared to Glens 44b picture.

Ghosthunter.