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Idris wrote:To date, all the green two-liners appear to be mint. To my mind that is reason to be suspicious.

Are these also reassigned decals?

As a matter of interest just how easy is it to re-assign 2 line decals from a blue pickfords to a green version with out damaging the decal?

It is fairly easy to do but making them completely undetectable is much harder.

nickjones wrote:It is fairly easy to do but making them completely undetectable is much harder.

But possible nonetheless?

I really can't see anyone taking an original blue two line Pickfords promotional model and using it as a donor for it's rare original decals. Once you remove those 2 line decals, this expensive original model is ruined. If you later put aftermarket 3 line decals on it, it is now a fake that is worth a lot less than the promotional model you had started with. Transferring those original 2 line decals in one piece after 50 years on the same toy is too risky for me to even think of doing successfully. When they were brand new on a sheet, they were much easier to install and very flexible, but care had to be taken not to tear them even at the factory.
What SCMs original point is that this 2 line decal was unknown on a green Pickfords until some original unused factory decals were sold to collectors years ago. Mike Stannard saw none in Lesney's factory collection that was viewed and documented as part of his 1985 Lesney variation Guide. None were found or known in the oldest English collections of that time that he used to document his detailed guide either. It seems more probable now that the spare factory 2 line decals found their way onto some green Pickfords later, but our question is whether Lesney tried to sell a last batch of green promotionals to the moving company. Were they rejected? Does anyone have information on that possibility? We now can see what Nick means about a controversial variation that is owned by more American collectors than British. Could a case of rejected green factory promotionals been sent to Sunny California and sold as toys in the 1960s, thereby creating such controversy? Many pages of comments so far, but no real facts from our Forum members on this one........kwakers

kwakers wrote: What SCMs original point is that this 2 line decal was unknown on a green Pickfords until some original unused factory decals were sold to collectors years ago. Mike Stannard saw none in Lesney's factory collection that was viewed and documented as part of his 1985 Lesney variation Guide. None were found or known in the oldest English collections of that time that he used to document his detailed guide either. It seems more probable now that the spare factory 2 line decals found their way onto some green Pickfords later, but our question is whether Lesney tried to sell a last batch of green promotionals to the moving company. Were they rejected? Does anyone have information on that possibility? We now can see what Nick means about a controversial variation that is owned by more American collectors than British. Could a case of rejected green factory promotionals been sent to Sunny California and sold as toys in the 1960s, thereby creating such controversy? Many pages of comments so far, but no real facts from our Forum members on this one........kwakers

Just about every collector in 1980s UK would have been aware that Pickford corporate colour was navy blue because this was a national company with trucks seen just about everywhere so they would be most unlikely to ever be fooled by green Pickfords suddenly appearing for the 1st time 20 years after the blue ones.The suggestion that they were official production for Pickfords is as absurd as Exxon/Esso ordering corporate gifts with their familiar blue + red logo recoloured yellow + green (BP colours).Emerald green as mentioned previously is close to the colour of BRS, a major nationalised UK transport concern of the 1960s.

However Americans would be clueless as to the company livery so could be fooled into buying these 1980s applied 2 line decal toys.If lesney had ever run short of 3 line decals they could have made up production using 2 line decals however there is zero evidence to suggest they ever did - Harold Colpitts + Bob Brennan et al would never have needed to wait until the early 1980s post factory decal sale to discover genuine factory green 2 line #46bs!

I agree that the scenario is of the green Pickfords 2 line is not a very common one Mick, and your points and facts are all correct and well taken on it. I can see why there is such controversy on the variation.....
After agreeing with you fully,.......Let me point out that the #62 cream Cougars were known to arrive as a shipment on the West Coast of the U.S.A., went into local collections, but were unknown to Bob Brennen and Harold Colpitts in their early East Coast guides. (They were unknown to we East Coast U.S.A. collectors as a whole.) Until Stannard pictured one and detailed their existence in 1985, few collectors worldwide even knew they existed other than the lucky few who owned them. They perhaps might even have been considered re-painted 'Fakes' if they were seen or found by us before Mike documented this factory pre-production colour. Could this same be true of an original single shipment of green Pickfords 2 line promotionals that also seem to originate out of the California area? OR? kwakers

SMS88 wrote:
Just about every collector in 1980s UK would have been aware that Pickford corporate colour was navy blue because this was a national company with trucks seen just about everywhere so they would be most unlikely to ever be fooled by green Pickfords suddenly appearing for the 1st time 20 years after the blue ones.The suggestion that they were official production for Pickfords is as absurd as Exxon/Esso ordering corporate gifts with their familiar blue + red logo recoloured yellow + green (BP colours).Emerald green as mentioned previously is close to the colour of BRS, a major nationalised UK transport concern of the 1960s.

It is very difficult to find the standard criterion and then claim, that e.g. the green line 2 Pickfords is a fake. Always there is an argument that can disprove the first argument .

- If someone says that it is suddenly appearing after 50-60 years:
I can answer that there are many and many models about which none of us heard over 50 years, e.g. my 10c Sugar Container in lighter blue with the crown and no front brace ( only one model known up till now) or my 61a Ferret Scout with number on the raised panel ( only one model known up till now)
By the way, 2 line green Pickfords already exists in 2 exemplars, and it was predicted

- If someone claims that the green painting is absurd for Pickfords company :
I can answer that it is quite possible that Lesney produced in their offer several models in blue and some in green , let the customer make his choice . The exeistence of the green model repainted to blue one only supports my assumption that both colours were made simultaneously .
By the way, there is the absurd 11a Esso Tanker in orange colour (not sunfaded ! !) also!!!!

- If someone claims that the model is mint:
I can answer that there are many pre pro or rare models in mint (or near mint) conditions, e.g. Jason's 7c Refuse Truck, my 20c Taxi without towing guide , my 33a Ford Zodiac in green, Matchboxgrizzly´s 75b Ferrari in bronze
By the way, from the point of statistic there is nothing suspicious to see one strange phenomenon or two strange phenomena consecutive

Sometimes I really do not know .....
Antonin

The sale of labels and decals from the post factory sale in the 80's will forever cast doubt on the authenticity of any rare variation of both RW and SF. The suggestion that from a time line perspective, these 2 line green Pickfords didnt start to appear until the 80's surely cannot be coincidence??

You can never therefore argue that a particular model was genuine unless it came with cast iron provenance.

motorman wrote:The sale of labels and decals from the post factory sale in the 80's will forever cast doubt on the authenticity of any rare variation of both RW and SF. The suggestion that from a time line perspective, these 2 line green Pickfords didnt start to appear until the 80's surely cannot be coincidence??

You can never therefore argue that a particular model was genuine unless it came with cast iron provenance.

Everything is possible, I do not argue that the green 2-lines Pickfords is 100% genuine. The exeistence of the green model repainted to blue one only supports my assumption that both colours were made simultaneously .
Some models did non appear up till now, some models appeared one year ago and some models will appear in one or five years. Thanks to Nick´s forum the occurrence of unlisted models was accelerated.
Antonin

I have a 2 line green Pickford. After reading all of this, I have taken it out of my collection and put it on the shelf. I remember buying the piece about 20 years ago. In the South East U.S. there is basically no toy shows. Back then I would attend a train show that would come around about once a year. It was a great day. In fact, the best single day of my Matchbox hobby. I would always make a fast trip around to see if anything stuck out and then I would go back through and take my time. I got to maybe the 3rd table and I saw a wooden Coke crate (standing on end that held 24 bottles) about 2 tables over. I flew around to that booth. They guy had 32 mint (minty 9+) pices. I started grabbing them and putting them in front of me. I picked up a 5C Players Please bus, a #68B Merceds green, and in that lot I found the 2 line Pickford. I asked the guy how much he wanted and he said $10 each. There were two or three other guys there by now looking at my pile. I looked at them like I would tear their arm off if they touched one piece. It was funny, I only had $300 in cash on me and my check book was in the car. I handed the guy the cash and told him that I needed to go to my car to get my check book and asked him to put the cars out of the reach of the other guys. I ran as fast as I could and got back to the table in a flash. I started writing the check and I started feeling guilty. I was taking advantage of the guy. So I told him that they are worth a lot more than $10 each. He smiled and said, I have already made my money back on the collection, he said...write the check. I did, smiling from ear to ear. I took them to the car and put them in the seat next to me. I actually patted them going down the road. It was a great day.

Now though it seems like I might have bought a fake. I have another piece that I bought about 15 years ago that I think might also be a fake and I am going to pull it out. Thanks for all of the opinions and thoughts on this! We need to keep our hobby honest!

Steve