Your explanation has some credibility however i find it somewhat surprising that half the Hatra was Machine finished whilst the other half Hand finished????
If your explanation is correct then that would obviously provide a good explanation as to why that front rivet looks so poor!! I hope that some of the other Intelligency on this forum will add some wealth to this discussion.
Hi MM,do note that any Diecast Hatra is a difficult casting to work with cos there is quite some actuation involved.The front part of the loader has to be independant from the rear in order to exact or simulate the real machines with arms,rams,the main swivel,etc (which im unfamiliar with)
Now read the other posts concerning the Hatra....
A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU & YOURS.
All the best
numi
numi
One cannot do much with all the monies in this world but can do much more if he strives toward contentment.
Isn't it interesting what a different angle can make. The left-hand image looks fine and I would not have a problem in buying this model, but the right-hand image shows what could easily be a damaged rivet and I would have reservations about this model...but they are the same model!!!
So even when it comes to standardising the way we all look at rivets and the pictures we take of them, it's a problem, if someone was going to purchase the model on the basis of just the right-hand image, they would refuse the purchase, but loose out when someone else buys it and shows it to be a perfectly respectable model!
Please, please scroll the picture to see all of it.
I take your point wrt the crosspiece within the rivet head and agree that this explains at least part of the rivet’s curious appearance.
As regards the edge of the rivet, I think the reason the one in your photograph looks so rough is that the flared edge closest to the camera has broken away (perhaps as the result of rough play?) leaving an uneven surface behind. However, I’m not convinced that this explains the decidedly chewed appearance of the rivet on the red-hubbed model, especially since the pie crust edge appears to cover the full circumference. Whilst I agree with you that all that would be needed to create this rare variation would be a wheel swap, we do not know the history of this particular model and so cannot rule out a complete strip and rebuild sometime in the past which was rounded off by the addition of contrasting hubs.
It would be interesting to know just how common these rough-edged turntable rivets are since, although such information will not provide certainty either way, it will enable us to gauge the balance of probabilities regarding this particular model’s authenticity.
Hi Idris,both my Hatras have never been played with and are in nMint-Mint condition.
I asked Dad to inspect my specimen with the round differential hole that has the chipped stem and he says that this was caused by an ill-placed/off centre rivetting-tool-strike and not caused by any metal fatigue.He says that this sort of breaking/chipping occurs mainly on tubular or semi-tubular porous rivets/metals and most tensile/hardened metals.
numi
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numi
One cannot do much with all the monies in this world but can do much more if he strives toward contentment.
Numi, your Dad obviously knows far more about metallurgy that I do (or ever will)! You are lucky having ready access to that kind of knowledge.
All I can really say is that I am happy to acknowledge that the crosspiece within the rivet does not represent cause for concern. However, I still feel that the whole edge of the rivet gives considerable cause for concern and I would not buy this particular model without a proper first-hand inspection. (Note how your rivets appear circular when viewed from directly above, but the red-hubbed model's rivet isn't.)
Just as with the painted and unpainted turntable rivet variation, it would be interesting to know which models have the crosspiece and which don't. (Does it represent a casting variation or is it simply a variation cause by the manufacturing process?)
This Hatra in question as well as the GPW Ice Cream Truck are being sold by my young friend Charlie Mack. The paint is AOK Idris, as is the articulating rivet. Numi has accurately described the hand riveting variances on the articulating rivet. They have to be 'loosely/partially' riveted to allow the Toy to articulate, whereas the base rivet is done solidly before both halves are painted and later riveted at the articulation joint, just as she has stated. As Tinman has said, the yellow version is so common, there would be no need to fake the paint on one of these anyway. It is a shame the rear axle end has been a tad mis-struck on this rare model. On such a rare and costly wheel variation, one tends to want 'perfect factory' axle ends. Small factory problems on axle ends that are seen on 'commons' become huge questions when dealing with expensive wheel rarities such as this Hatra. I am in need of this variation, and I did look the listing pictures over very closely last week when Charlie was selling it.
I was an original member of Charlie's Matchbox U.S.A. Club that he formed when he and Harold Colpitts had a falling out in the 70s. Nigel and I have known Charlie for many years, attended many of his 'Conventions', and he would have nothing to gain by selling anything questionable today. Charlie has been a prominent figure in our hobby for 40 years now, and he has had most of the rarest of Lesneys in his Connecticutt U.S.A. Matchbox Museum collection over the years.
On Tut's Tractors: I have a good supply of #50 John Deere Tractors for those 13mm yellow rear wheels if he ever runs out of them for his 'Rare' #72 Fordson Tractors. They and their green #51 Trailers were the last Regular Wheels still left in the stores in 1972! kwakers
In the old days over on MCCH there were some respected members who suggested that C.Mack had passed off more than one fake as genuine as well as listing some fake variations in his guides purely to make money. Once the finger of suspicion has been pointed I would triple check anything from such a source rather than giving the benefit of the doubt.
I suggest avoiding this toy because it can only taint your collection,better to wait for an obviously untampered with example to show up
I've spotted that the same seller is now listing the same varaition again (here).
Is this a second example, or simply the first one coming round for a second time? (I think it's the same model, but didn't that one sell in an auction listing? If so, someone's received it, inspected it, and rejected it.)
Yes Idris, it is the same Toy being sold again by Charlie Mack. If you look at the mis-struck rear axle end with the concentric circle in it, it is very easy to spot and exactly what I pointed to in our earlier Post on this one. I am assuming these are the same listing pictures used on the first sale because I still remember there was no clear picture of the front riveted axle end. The opposite side picture with the Domed heads is perfectly in focus. A better picture of the axles is needed on the riveted side. kwakers
