VBD2 is closed. Please go to https://vbd3.co.uk instead.

George, i don´t think, that this model was made as a real fake. It all started with a beater and as we can see, it ended up as a beater. Someone had playfun with it, thats all.

Roland I was not referring to your model.

George T.

kerbside wrote:Tinman what is the point in doing these things to models, unless one intends making fake models and repaints.

George T.

You presume a pristine and undamaged model is altered. I take the damaged and broken models no one wants and make them whole again. "The point" is quite simple: Restoration.

Tinman wrote:

kerbside wrote:Tinman what is the point in doing these things to models, unless one intends making fake models and repaints.

George T.

You presume a pristine and undamaged model is altered. I take the damaged and broken models no one wants and make them whole again. "The point" is quite simple: Restoration.

And some bloomin good ones too

The definition of restoration is to bring a thing back to its original state only. Not to alter it in any way, or paint it another colour.

As you have said in your last post like the 45a where you have removed the pips and the dashboard what will become of that model now?

If some one buys it as even a restored model what happens to it in later years, you may do nice work but to my way of thinking that's

a no-no what ever the motive is I am sorry to say and I am not on my own.

George T.

kerbside wrote:The definition of restoration is to bring a thing back to its original state only. Not to alter it in any way, or paint it another colour.

As you have said in your last post like the 45a where you have removed the pips and the dashboard what will become of that model now?

If some one buys it as even a restored model what happens to it in later years, you may do nice work but to my way of thinking that's

a no-no what ever the motive is I am sorry to say and I am not on my own.

George T.

That's only your personal definition of the word and does not match any of the several definitions of "Restore" I just looked up. You've worded your personal definition to suit a very narrow view and myopic way of thinking on the subject.

Some of the models I work on were abused and in pretty bad shape. Sometimes, I like to give these particular models an even greater spotlight in their next life. That's my elective choice and it's still a restoration by all real definitions. I derive much enjoyment from this side of the hobby. There is the hunt for the beaters and play worn models. The challenges of the restoration itself and the feeling of accomplishment when the work is done. I find all phases of this work enjoyable and challenging.

There's plenty of men and women who like to restore and customize models. There are plenty of fans of such work. It's a far larger side of the hobby than some narrow minded people want to even think about. A small industry has grown up around supplying reproductions parts, accessories, paints, tools and supplies to those who restore, customize and create. Shows and competitions have developed around this side of the hobby.

When you cast these not so subtle accusations and attempt to misdirect everyone to the point of view that restoration customizing and any alteration of any model is fraud, that's just plain wrong on many levels. No one collector, no one member has the right to judge how other individuals enjoy the hobby. Or, how and what others collect, display or use the objects of their passion. If you are not alone, then I am sad to learn that their is a group of people who want to control how others would think and enjoy their hobby. It's sad for many reasons, but most of all because such a group would be a collective of small minded people who think they know more or know better than the rest of us. I will stand by anyone who wishes to collect in whatever style/method they want and to have strong opinions about their collecting style.

For George, when a personal point of view turns into an Elitist stand and begins to judge the actions, motives and thoughts of others ... then I have to call that out as wrong. I will not sit idle and be accused of perpetrating fraud or other criminal acts. Regardless of how subtle the attempts or language, that's exactly what you are doing. Quite frankly, I find that action beneath you and quite unflattering. I have a very high opinion George, despite his constant attacks using gentleman's language.

If someone wants to denegrate themselves down to the level John Houghton has gone, then by all means, fill up a web site with comments taken from context and paraphrasing to make me look like a criminal and the mastermind behind fraud in the hobby. Then you can use that unjust personal attack as a transition to sell your book and make yourself look like the hero in the fight against fraud and crime in the hobby.

Let's face it, I was exposing fraudsters on the web long before others were willing to go into serious details about the issue. While others have long written about the dangers of fraud, I took the fight right to the door steps of many of the fraudsters that have plagued the hobby over the last two decades. I've personally worked very hard to prove many individual cases of fraud and been instrumental in many collectors having their money returned. I exposed many other fakes and cases of fraud that were unknown to collectors and concerned models in their own collections. I even pointed out reproduction decals on a model in George's collection (which he shared on the old mcch site).

I am asking collector to collector, George, please stop these repeated pettty attacks on my style, my personal way of enjoying my hobby.

kerbside wrote:The definition of restoration is to bring a thing back to its original state only. Not to alter it in any way, or paint it another colour.

Oh no, not again! In my Mercedes-scene there is the same lame discussion! Billions of $ are made with costumizing real cars and still there are these kind of people, which wouldn´t eben make an oil change, because then its not the original filling anymore. Yes, even these people have the right to do it their way, they can keep their cars stock and factory original. The sad story about this people is, that they got zero tolerance and only accept originals.

Back to topic. A perfect resto in the perfect color can easily end up as fraud! Thats what people do often enough. If a reverse BP wrecker pops up, everybody is aware of its rarity and takes care, but how about a nice copper cresta? One can get good money for a faked and restored model without being doubted in the first glance!

What should happen to all the beaters? Shall they all be thrown away? Are only near mint models allowed to survive? This is a hobby in first place although i know lots of people, which see this as an investment. To be honest, i don´t care about this investment - i spend my money on it, when i got some. I buy, what i like and not whats eventually a refinancing for my retirement.

I love Joes rescues and wish him to go on with it!

Miller wrote:In my Mercedes-scene there is the same lame discussion! Billions of $ are made with costumizing real cars and still there are these kind of people, which wouldn´t eben make an oil change, because then its not the original filling anymore.

I hope you're making that up or exaggerating. If not, it's sad/pathetic that someone would risk damage to their machine "for the sake of originality."

As for the beaters? Give 'em to a kid! Otherwise, spiff 'em up if that's your thing. I'm proud to say that every model in my collection is 100% original, but for playwear. Will that change? It might, and perhaps in the very near future. I always find an original model preferable, but I'd rather see them restored than tossed into the landfill. It's when someone misrepresents an obviously modified model as a rare original that I have problems with spiffing them up.

Something is only fraud if coupled to an attempt to defraud.
From what I have seen, Joe's models are easy to tell apart from the real thing. (I believe I'm correct in saying that he replaces the baseplate rivets with small screws.)
Could I please remind everyone that we should be treating each other with respect. If someone has a problem with another person's way of working/attitude toward the hobby then, by all means, let's have a discussion. However, the posts must be kept factual and free of veiled meanings.
I would also remind Members that the Forum has an extremely good PM system which is much better suited to certain communications than public postings.

Squid wrote:

Miller wrote:In my Mercedes-scene there is the same lame discussion! Billions of $ are made with costumizing real cars and still there are these kind of people, which wouldn´t eben make an oil change, because then its not the original filling anymore.

I hope you're making that up or exaggerating. If not, it's sad/pathetic that someone would risk damage to their machine "for the sake of originality."

Of course they do oil changes! I´m in the tuner business and sell rare parts from AMG, Brabus, Lorinser from the 70 - 90ies. Another phrase ist "The "Originalos" would even fill up their tires with air from Stuttgart to keep their car original". Its a funny answer to their behave. I love to see complete original cars on GTGs, pampered with much TLC. But they don´t accept people thinking another way, although we all love our old Mercedes...