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Idris wrote:BTW, did the later variations with white trim still have mask-sprayed trim to the crates, or did Lesney go back to hand painting? (My guess would be the latter because of the thickness of the white paint, but that's not to say that they didn't try...........)

I've always assumed they went back to all hand painting for the same reasons. However, it's possible some mask sprayed white crates are out there and they should have the same tell-tale signs as the silver crates. On the other hand, silver argent covers & hides far better than white paint and mask spraying the crates in white may not have looked very good.

The model never escaped being partly hand painted. For a moment, completly discount the driver and just think about the crates. Even when the crates were being sprayed in silver, the horse continued to be hand painted ... was always hand painted, from day one until the last one went into a box and was shipped. Hand trim application continued on with other models long after the milk float was replaced with the Anglia.

Lesney would have wanted to mask sprat as much of a model and as many models in the range as possible. Complicated castings such as Horses and Human figures will not lend themselves easily to mask spraying and we can be sure Lesney would have tried it, and would have to revert back to hand painting for some components.

If during production a model such as the 7a missed the mask spraying for the crates, it could easily be caught, picked up off the flow line and have them hand painted, rather than rejected altogether.

GHOSTHUNTER.

GHOSTHUNTER wrote:If during production a model such as the 7a missed the mask spraying for the crates, it could easily be caught, picked up off the flow line and have them hand painted, rather than rejected altogether.GHOSTHUNTER.

I wasn't there to see how Lesney handled their quality control. That said, I've seen other "lines" and worked quality control on a "line." For something as minor as missing trim, a line would not be stopped unless every single one coming down the line missed a step. If an odd model here and there missed the trim, it would likely be noted but not picked off the line and allowed to keep on going (at least this is the case with mass produced inexpensive items). If the count of items with missing trim began to climb, that would be reported and a supervisor of that "line" would address the issue.

Even with large ticket items, sometimes, small flaws are allowed to proceed down the line to become a "warranty issue." This is the kind of thing that gave Japanese cars a big leg up on American made cars (back in the day). The Japanese didn't allow even minor defects to go out without being addressed. Whereas their American counter parts considered minor defects a "dealer warranty issue" and allowed the products to be shipped. That mentality became pervasive in the production of certain things and really hurt the reputation of some companies. It wasn't until competition took a big chunk of their market share before they were forced to see the light.

Tinman wrote:The model never escaped being partly hand painted. For a moment, completly discount the driver and just think about the crates. Even when the crates were being sprayed in silver, the horse continued to be hand painted ... was always hand painted, from day one until the last one went into a box and was shipped.

I should have made it clear that my comments on trimming referred to just the float. (I'd assumed that the horse and the float were treated by the factory as two different items and trimmed completely separately before being combined to form the finished model I had therefore mentally put the horse to one side.)

The question we should be asking ourselves is what did Lesney gain by turning what had been a single-step trimming process (driver and crates hand-trimmed at the same time) into a two-step process requiring first the crates to be spray trimmed and then, after drying, the drivers to be hand trimmed?
Surely this splitting of the trimming would have been more expensive and have resulted in greater stocks of work-in-progress?

Idris wrote
At first sight, a two stage trimming process seems odd, but of course that is precisely what cars with tail lights underwent. However, that was all hand applied whereas this variation represents a combination of mask-and hand-applied trim. (Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other models where this is the case.)

Tinman wrote
Hand trim application continued on with other models long after the milk float was replaced with the Anglia.

Hello Joe and Hugh
I would like some clarification on the two above comments.
Mask sprayed trim was underway by 1959 and the 7b Anglia arrived in March 1961.
To my understanding after about 1960 all trim was done by mask spray and I would be interested to know of any factory hand applied trim on any 1-75 model after 1960.

And also to answer a couple more questions…….



Idris wrote:BTW, did the later variations with white trim still have mask-sprayed trim to the crates, or did Lesney go back to hand painting? (My guess would be the latter because of the thickness of the white paint, but that's not to say that they didn't try...........)

tinman wrote
I've always assumed they went back to all hand painting for the same reasons. However, it's possible some mask sprayed white crates are out there and they should have the same tell-tale signs as the silver crates. On the other hand, silver argent covers & hides far better than white paint and mask spraying the crates in white may not have looked very good.



I can help here.....
I have a gpw riveted axles 7a and has white mask sprayed crates/bottles and the driver has a masked sprayed hat.
As I would expect there is tiny amounts of overspray on the drivers right hand sleeve and on his knee.
I will take some macro photos tomorrow in daylight hours.
It is also worth noting that in Nick’s write-up on the 7a he states the drivers hat is mask sprayed and I would be inclined to think the two 7a pics he shows with just white hats are mask sprayed (crimped axles)

Regards
Bert

yellowfoden wrote:Idris wrote
At first sight, a two stage trimming process seems odd, but of course that is precisely what cars with tail lights underwent. However, that was all hand applied whereas this variation represents a combination of mask-and hand-applied trim. (Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other models where this is the case.)

Tinman wrote
Hand trim application continued on with other models long after the milk float was replaced with the Anglia.

Hello Joe and Hugh
I would like some clarification on the two above comments.
Mask sprayed trim was underway by 1959 and the 7b Anglia arrived in March 1961.
To my understanding after about 1960 all trim was done by mask spray and I would be interested to know of any factory hand applied trim on any 1-75 model after 1960.

And also to answer a couple more questions…….



Idris wrote:BTW, did the later variations with white trim still have mask-sprayed trim to the crates, or did Lesney go back to hand painting? (My guess would be the latter because of the thickness of the white paint, but that's not to say that they didn't try...........)

tinman wrote
I've always assumed they went back to all hand painting for the same reasons. However, it's possible some mask sprayed white crates are out there and they should have the same tell-tale signs as the silver crates. On the other hand, silver argent covers & hides far better than white paint and mask spraying the crates in white may not have looked very good.



I can help here.....
I have a gpw riveted axles 7a and has white mask sprayed crates/bottles and the driver has a masked sprayed hat.
As I would expect there is tiny amounts of overspray on the drivers right hand sleeve and on his knee.
I will take some macro photos tomorrow in daylight hours.
It is also worth noting that in Nick’s write-up on the 7a he states the drivers hat is mask sprayed and I would be inclined to think the two 7a pics he shows with just white hats are mask sprayed (crimped axles)

Regards
Bert

That's a subject I've never looked into (white mask sprayed trim on the 7a, after the silver trim). I don't recall any of the 7a trim discussions continuing on past the silver trim and the issue kind of died out without going on any further. IMHO, it's well worth examining the last issues of the model and coming up with some concrete answers about white trim. It's also possible Lesney experimented with more than one mask for the silver trim and that the driver was attempted to be included. It's possible examples of that might be out there and have eluded examination and discussion. We all know there are far more silver models out there in collections, owned by people who do not participate in discussions, forums or open sharing of information.

yellowfoden wrote:To my understanding after about 1960 all trim was done by mask spray and I would be interested to know of any factory hand applied trim on any 1-75 model after 1960.

Obvious exception being the milk float horse and driver (driver for at least some degree of time which is under discussion right now).

The milk float seems to be the last 1-75 model that received hand applied trim. The milk floats and the road roller were icons of the small model series for many years. The milk float must have been a good seller because it was in the range for a long time and they are easy to find, even today. Hand trim continued on in the YY series for many years.

So, far, this discussion has few participants, but it has had quite a few views. Expanding the scope of discussion beyond the silver trim and into the final casting variation and return to white trim would be helpful and possibly expand the number of members with something to contribute.

Tinman wrote:So, far, this discussion has few participants, but it has had quite a few views. Expanding the scope of discussion beyond the silver trim and into the final casting variation and return to white trim would be helpful and possibly expand the number of members with something to contribute.

I agree. I think the whole question of what happened to the milk float (but not the horse) trim from the moment it switched to silver promises to be fascinating.
Not only do we already have proof positive of a two-step trimming process, involving both mark- and hand-applied trim, we have also been promised photographs showing the existence of white mask-applied trim!
Did the model latterly revert to hand-applied white trim? Did the driver’s hat revert to hand-applied trim? Lots of questions to be answered!