SF #8 Mustang Rare???

[Idris]

...Harvey´s 23c window reassignment and years of whispers about Mack´s endorsement of a few dodgy models...

I do not know Bob, have never (to the best of my knowledge) bought anything from him, and have no reason to doubt his integrity but, as Mick points out above, previously respected collectors have be found to have gone over to the dark side. On the other hand,Bob didn't make a big song and dance about this model (which is, perhaps, more than a little odd given its rarity) and invited would-be bidders to judge it on the basis of the photographic evidence presented in the listing.

[kwakers]

'Base off Fakes' Mick? That is the most laughable statement and accusation I have ever heard from you to date, and I will ignore it for the sake of my own sanity.....
Having dealt with Bob since 1969 as a pen Pal and a snail mail variation and model trader, I have no reason to question any of his Diecast offerings, no matter how rare or from which line of collectible Toys they have come from, or even from who's collection they may have been bought out of 30+ years ago. When I buy a repainted fake, or a found to be modified model, it goes on a fake model shelf, and would go in the garbage rather than be ever sold by me as original. It is a person's basic honesty and actions that shapes our whole life's work. Accusing Bob of selling a modified or fake model is equivalent to saying that Harold Colpitts, kwakers, Nick Jones, or perhaps Tinman are currently selling a 'dodgy' model. This just does not happen with certain collectors, never has, and never will. This has nothing to do with Hardy's Glazed Caravan or Charlie's Yellow Hatra with red hubs, this is about Bob's entire life's work I have been witness to. Using opinions and speculation when viewing pictures to question a good man's reputation is reason to lose seasoned collectors like myself on a Forum. Where are the models??
The Lambo just shown looks fine to me. If delivery is taken of any model from Bob and it is found not to be original when a collector has it in hand, I would buy that model from the purchaser at HIS cost, PLUS pay his Postage to see that model before I ever lose faith. That is a SERIOUS OFFER.
Nick and Tinman, I apologize for your names entering here, but the youngsters just don't understand a life of honesty. When you start throwing in names of others with dodgy records, that is when you have run out of arguments and any facts about Bob and are now grasping.
You missed a nice original model there Vetrad that I will personally stand behind as to authenticity. kwakers

[SMS88]

Kwakers chooses only to puff up the reputation of his old acquaintance as a distraction from making a sound evaluation of the evidence plain for all to see in the photographs. This Mustang could be an item supplied by a certain Mr Carr , an ex Lesney employee. The fact that Hardy did not win this auction & was not the losing bidder is proof enough for me after he declined to buy it at any time when seeing Bob´s entire collection that this Mustang was overpriced and not anything that he would risk his reputation to offer to his clients.The Muira looks like a genuine factory model to me provided the gunge around the rivits is no more than that,perhaps residue of polish applied to the baseplate.

Harold Colpitts reputation is spotless and from all accounts he was a man who made full and frank disclosures of all relevent information.

Ebay seller Bob Brennan could be in reality just as kwakers believes OR on the other hand as he is known to be secretive and prefers not to provide any useful information and no advice beyond ´´ make your own mind up from the photos ´´ which is the same advice used by used by some unscrupulous folks who wish to sell you what ever is in their photograph regardless of originality at the highest possible prices. Without any written declaration or representations of authenticity to support photos which could more easily be of fakes than mega rare hard to find items its all down to what can be observed in the photos! If asked I bet Graham Rockertron would decline to list this mustang on his ebay auctions.

[vetrad]

Kwackers, Firstly, I wanted to say you seem personally upset, and that was not my intention. I did not share these photos to aggravate you or anyone else. I never said the 33 Miura was a fake model, but I could see the rivets were not closed in a traditional way and that there was potentially some residue on them. For me personally, I am not willing to buy an expensive model based on provenance alone, the physical evidence also has to fit. I do not want to own a car I continually question and re-take off the shelf to look at again, and I felt this 33 would have turned into one of those. As you say, perhaps I missed out on a genuine model, but that is irrelevant. I could see it was not a model I personally would be happy with in my collection. Perhaps if I went to church more, I would be more ready to accept things based on faith alone, LOL!

Lastly, discussing models like this is fun. I appreciate it if we could be objective and not make things personal when discussing these topics. It is not logical to state that a model is definitely real because a certain person owned it. And, it is not logical to say someone is a bad seller because they sell one model that is questionable. It is more correct to say, certain collectors would not INTENTIONALLY pass along a bad model. We are all people and we all have our faults and are susceptible to err.

[kwakers]

What you leave out Vetrad is that when a model is held in hand by a 50 year collector of these toys, we don't make the type of errors that can simply be seen in a picture. We do not 'Miss' base swaps, we do not sell base swaps, we are so damn honest we don't ever want anyone to buy anything from us they are not happy with.
I am not upset at you Vetrad, I am simply defending Bob's reputation who has always had a lifetime of Positive dealings with at least a hundred of my closest collector friends in the U.S. and abroad.
Mick seems to have a personal vendetta to prove he can slander Bob at every turn, and I simply will not stand quietly by while he does so publicly or behind closed doors. I have made myself quite clear, anything Bob sells that someone finds questionable ON PERSONAL INSPECTION will be paid for by me instead of returning it to Bob. I am quite anxious to find one piece that is not genuine, and I am putting my $$ on the table to prove any of my above statements are wrong.
Vetrad, If you choose to make a decision on an important model based on a picture instead of when it is in hand, you gambled away a nice variation for the price of return Postage to Bob if it was not 100% to your liking in hand. We have discussed being 100% satisfied with our expensive rare models, and I do understand your position on having 'perfect rivets and axles' on them. That is good advice and smart collecting. kwakers

[SMS88]

What you leave out Vetrad is that when a model is held in hand by a 50 year collector of these toys, we don't make the type of errors that can simply be seen in a picture. We do not 'Miss' base swaps, we do not sell base swaps, we are so damn honest we don't ever want anyone to buy anything from us they are not happy with.
I am not upset at you Vetrad, I am simply defending Bob's reputation who has always had a lifetime of Positive dealings with at least a hundred of my closest collector friends in the U.S. and abroad.
Mick seems to have a personal vendetta to prove he can slander Bob at every turn, and I simply will not stand quietly by while he does so publicly or behind closed doors. I have made myself quite clear, anything Bob sells that someone finds questionable ON PERSONAL INSPECTION will be paid for by me instead of returning it to Bob. I am quite anxious to find one piece that is not genuine, and I am putting my $$ on the table to prove any of my above statements are wrong.
Vetrad, If you choose to make a decision on an important model based on a picture instead of when it is in hand, you gambled away a nice variation for the price of return Postage to Bob if it was not 100% to your liking in hand. We have discussed being 100% satisfied with our expensive rare models, and I do understand your position on having 'perfect rivets and axles' on them. That is good advice and smart collecting. kwakers

Using a magnifying glass on a toy in the hand or looking at a high quality photo are both ways to spot fakes -some details of customs or fakery are not visible to the naked eye but do show up under magnification. I dont need this Mustang in my hand to see that it has features inconsistent with factory paint finish + factory riviting which we do see on fakes and also on factory trial models.And collectors outside the USA do NOT need to waste their money on shipping and customs duties to discover that the photos dont lie.
I have not slandered Bob Brennan - it is a fact that he is secretive and chooses not to disclose or express information and opinions that ebay bidders and serious Lesney collectors would find useful or fascinating or both. If Bob Brennan chose to be as publicly forthcoming about the Christmas 1969 crimped axle reverse wreckers as Harold Colpitts has been he would have earned much respect from Lesney collectors everywhere but in fact he has remained silent has only contributed to confusion and uncertainty , not even telling Hardy anything he was able to share with us.
If any member here can draw Graham Rockertron´s attention to that Mustang auction and photos it would be educational for all to discover whether or not he would be prepared to re-sell it. We already know good nose for a profit Hardy walked away TWICE from what kwakers regards as a bargain which I will repeat, is enough for me to trust my eyes when I examine those photos rather than kwakers faith in the seller while ignoring the details in the photos

[Idris]

Can all parties concerned please remember to argue the matter in question and to avoid any personal comments. Please play the ball and not the man.

[numi]

Heres what i find disenchanting about Brennan and then the good unpatronized truth about him.

1) he uses the same pics on his re-lists (supposed duplicates??) a day/week after the auction has ended on his alternate Ebay a/c.

2) he fails to add base pics on most of his commons and also on some Htf models.

3) he seems to add extra pics incl base pics on some interesting,htf & rare models so it shows that he does have some knowledge about its scarcity/rarity or perceive them to have desirable interest.

4) his Mb/Lesney model condition descriptions rarely matches his pics.He (his entity) classifies them as Mint yet most are nMint or Excellent-nMint and states if the buyer is unhappy about the item & terms then they should "pass him by".Kinda like "if u complain,then i will block u from future bidding/buying" and thats unwarranted and unfair as the buyer has the right to buy & complain if flaws are discovered upon receipt due to the lack of pics and incorrect description.If he considers models to have bad chipping and which can be seen at a glance then he clearly describes the model as "Good" and states its close or true condition.Perhaps he doesnt use his glasses and expects them to be as new as he ordered them decades ago....lol.

5) my gut tells me that he is not a fraud but just old-school,laid-back fortunate dude with no rush to go anywhere and slightly "independent".Never sends prompt responses to any concerns or questions but always only just about an hour before auction closes as ive experienced.Perhaps hes busy,busy!

6) i have noticed him selling off some very interesting models but without ample pics and proper descriptions and to his detriment i presume eg.The White Grille Aral Tanker,a flat Grey pre-pro Porsche,the flat green Group5 among others and also the Combine without the baseplate which Jason now has in his collection.

I find it hard to believe that an early die-hard Mb collector with privileged free access would collect or sell models other than that which came out the Lesney factory.Its possible that this White Mustang was a R & D trial model or just a lunch-box special from the factory,Perhaps made to order or swiped by him but then again who really knows the truth except Brennan himself but hes not telling anyway.However this specimen would still remain questionable by collectors.Its also possible that some of his questionable specimens were actually factory-trial rejects and now sells them off in confidence similar to error models knowing full well that they are true Lesney.Excludes the 1970 Reverse Wrecker saga.

With him being an early collector,one would be curious or amazed at what he possibly still has hidden knowing full well that he had free-pass to certain employees,departments and the full-internals at Lesney.Very few collectors or associates can boast this.I also do not believe that he would want to tarnish his image,reputation & legacy at this point in life/time when he has now retired from collecting.Perhaps its good for us in that we have to keep a keen eye out for those special models at unbelievably low end-prices!
Shoot me!
numi

[SMS88]

Heres what i find disenchanting about Brennan and then the good unpatronized truth about him.

1) he uses the same pics on his re-lists (supposed duplicates??) a day/week after the auction has ended on his alternate Ebay a/c.

2) he fails to add base pics on most of his commons and also on some Htf models.

3) he seems to add extra pics incl base pics on some interesting,htf & rare models so it shows that he does have some knowledge about its scarcity/rarity or perceive them to have desirable interest.

4) his Mb/Lesney model condition descriptions rarely matches his pics.He (his entity) classifies them as Mint yet most are nMint or Excellent-nMint and states if the buyer is unhappy about the item & terms then they should "pass him by".Kinda like "if u complain,then i will block u from future bidding/buying" and thats unwarranted and unfair as the buyer has the right to buy & complain if flaws are discovered upon receipt due to the lack of pics and incorrect description.If he considers models to have bad chipping and which can be seen at a glance then he clearly describes the model as "Good" and states its close or true condition.Perhaps he doesnt use his glasses and expects them to be as new as he ordered them decades ago....lol.

5) my gut tells me that he is not a fraud but just old-school,laid-back fortunate dude with no rush to go anywhere and slightly "independent".Never sends prompt responses to any concerns or questions but always only just about an hour before auction closes as ive experienced.Perhaps hes busy,busy!

6) i have noticed him selling off some very interesting models but without ample pics and proper descriptions and to his detriment i presume eg.The White Grille Aral Tanker,a flat Grey pre-pro Porsche,the flat green Group5 among others and also the Combine without the baseplate which Jason now has in his collection.

I find it hard to believe that an early die-hard Mb collector with privileged free access would collect or sell models other than that which came out the Lesney factory.Its possible that this White Mustang was a R & D trial model or just a lunch-box special from the factory,Perhaps made to order or swiped by him but then again who really knows the truth except Brennan himself but hes not telling anyway.However this specimen would still remain questionable by collectors.Its also possible that some of his questionable specimens were actually factory-trial rejects and now sells them off in confidence similar to error models knowing full well that they are true Lesney.Excludes the 1970 Reverse Wrecker saga.

With him being an early collector,one would be curious or amazed at what he possibly still has hidden knowing full well that he had free-pass to certain employees,departments and the full-internals at Lesney.Very few collectors or associates can boast this.I also do not believe that he would want to tarnish his image,reputation & legacy at this point in life/time when he has now retired from collecting.Perhaps its good for us in that we have to keep a keen eye out for those special models at unbelievably low end-prices!
Shoot me!
numi

This attitude numi describes is the bankers´ attitude regarding ebayers as cows to be milked or sheep to be shorn of their money for whatever is being pushed on the day. Bob Brennan lived in USA - I dont know whether or not he was a regular visitor to the UK or more likely most of his dealings with lesney were by mail at a time when sending money was costly and time consuming unless posted cash so I doubt he had any free pass or had access to factory specials unless he paid through official channels for special stock orders like his runs of #32 tankers.This Mustang still looks like a base off seat swap that took less than 5 minutes to be made at home some time after it left the factory and on the offchance it is genuine factory production unfortunately Bob has declined his chance to endow it with any provenance that would give any buyer any re-assurance which actually re-enforces the question mark created by the rivit!

[kwakers]

My Factory paint Trial from Joe Stone's collection has chisel split roof and base rivets Mick, and it's rather crude paint job does not show as 'stock' Lesney baked on enamel at all. The finished model shows many chips and scrapes from being used in factory stress testing also, but I still love it dearly. It's single crimped axle was done in 1968, so of course that feature surely is way out of any known Lesney R&D timeline other than the 1970 Wreckers. One day you may also tear that one apart as a 'base off fake' Mick, but maybe someone here might remember me, and even stick up for my honesty and knowledge in collecting Lesneys as Numi has for Bob Brennen.
Even though Motorman still has his doubts, I know Bob has forgotten more than I know about Lesneys after my 50 years of collecting..... kwakers