VBD2 is closed. Please go to https://vbd3.co.uk instead.

Idris wrote:

SMS88 wrote:Supported by tinman´s expert opinion when he examined one closely - impossible to tell apart from known genuine Lesney crimps!

We discussed this on the old forum and it was suggested that it was quite possible that the unpainted castings could easily have been smuggled out of the factory, with the completed models being smuggled back in for wheeling.

SMS88 wrote:This is probably the most absurd hypothesis idris has ever come up with.
And this obsessive repetitive use of word fake merely shows idris´s foolish contempt for the legacy Harold Colpitts and insults all forum members by tarring them with his own feeble judgement of the available evidence - most people here are far too sensible to value idris´s opinion when they can go with Harold Colpitts,who, as kwackers rightly says, made a giant contribution the beginnings of our hobby and was there at the time with contacts in the Lesney factory rather than being a 21st century armchair speculator like idris.

SMS88 wrote:The majority of serious deep pockets collectors regards these crimped wreckers to have the same status as the other NAMC specials, the red/white and purple/silver tankers.

SMS88 wrote:Nigel´s playworn crimped wrecker that he found and has owned since the 1970s proves that some extras were made and stayed in the UK, not all went to USA with Joe Stone.

SMS88 wrote:

Idris wrote:

SMS88 wrote:Supported by tinman´s expert opinion when he examined one closely - impossible to tell apart from known genuine Lesney crimps!

We discussed this on the old forum and it was suggested that it was quite possible that the unpainted castings could easily have been smuggled out of the factory, with the completed models being smuggled back in for wheeling.

The paint test of the one model shows that at least one (which is strong evidence that a group of these} were painted at the factory.

SMS88 wrote:This is probably the most absurd hypothesis idris has ever come up with.
And this obsessive repetitive use of word fake merely shows idris´s foolish contempt for the legacy Harold Colpitts and insults all forum members by tarring them with his own feeble judgement of the available evidence - most people here are far too sensible to value idris´s opinion when they can go with Harold Colpitts,who, as kwackers rightly says, made a giant contribution the beginnings of our hobby and was there at the time with contacts in the Lesney factory rather than being a 21st century armchair speculator like idris.

I certainly didn't read any insults towards Harold into his comments, nor did I read any further insults (toward others) into the comments. As for the use of the word "fake," this model has always been commonly described as the "Factory Fake." That, combined with the number of home made spurious Factory Fake reproductions, makes discussing this model impossible without typing the work "fake" in abundance.

SMS88 wrote:Tinman is one of the few ever who can make passable Lesney crimps at home - we already know Joe Stone and Bob Brennan had the factory connections to get these crimps made on Jack Odell´s R & D machine far more easily than finding some hobbyist with the tools and skills.

I'm not seeing the connection where Idris or anyone else is saying that the model's base or axle ends were tooled anywhere other than in the factory. The comments quoted above conveys to me that even Idris is not disputing that the base and axle ends are factory tooled. Mick, I don't know what your point here is but it seems to be moot.

SMS88 wrote: The majority of serious deep pockets collectors regards these crimped wreckers to have the same status as the other NAMC specials, the red/white and purple/silver tankers.

It's obvious that some collectors do highly value (by the merits of the price they are willing to pay) the Factory Fake reverse color wreckers. I would not assume or guess how any of these collectors view this model as compared to the NAMC tankers. The NAMC tankers are a well known club promotional model sanctioned by Lesney. The wrecker is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma and was distributed via cronyism in a clandestine manner (hardly like the documented tanker which was distributed via the club in an open manner).

SMS88 wrote: Nigel´s playworn crimped wrecker that he found and has owned since the 1970s proves that some extras were made and stayed in the UK, not all went to USA with Joe Stone.

Idris wrote:I seem to recall that the origin's of Nigel's model were disclosed by Nigel towards the end of the "Joe Stone" thread on the old Forum. I don't recall the exact details, but I'm pretty sure that he purchased it in the UK at a swapmeet or such like.

Tinman wrote:

Idris wrote:I seem to recall that the origin's of Nigel's model were disclosed by Nigel towards the end of the "Joe Stone" thread on the old Forum. I don't recall the exact details, but I'm pretty sure that he purchased it in the UK at a swapmeet or such like.

Then it's unlikely we will ever learn more about it and I still think it's a red herring with concern to this discussion.

I don't know what happened to my last post, but it's a bit confusing to establish the attributions until my very last comment.

SMS88 wrote:
How can it be a red herring when aside from the chips its identical to those given out to Bob Brennan´s closest friends??? I would not be surprised if a handful more turn up in the UK belonging to ex factory emplyees families ( think glazed 23cs that just surfaced) or sourced from those who collected in the early 1970s. Certainly Nigel did write that the guy he bought it from sold it for pennies as a playworn custom but Nigel recognised it as a genuine Lesney from the standard of its finish - either a former R & D model or an extra quality control reserve made kept by somebody who had factory access.

Tinman wrote:

SMS88 wrote:
How can it be a red herring when aside from the chips its identical to those given out to Bob Brennan´s closest friends??? I would not be surprised if a handful more turn up in the UK belonging to ex factory emplyees families ( think glazed 23cs that just surfaced) or sourced from those who collected in the early 1970s. Certainly Nigel did write that the guy he bought it from sold it for pennies as a playworn custom but Nigel recognised it as a genuine Lesney from the standard of its finish - either a former R & D model or an extra quality control reserve made kept by somebody who had factory access.

But that's only your guess. Who knows where it came from, why it was considered only a toy or how the seller came into possesion? It's because all those (unknown) elements of fact are missing that it becomes a red herring. If we just start assigning guesses and assumptions as facts, we are going no where.