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Idris wrote:

nickjones wrote:I see you have a black label Douglas in your cabinet, Cool.
How many of these have we seen now Hugh?.

I think it must be bordering on double figures. The majority have been mint, but a couple were playworn which indicates to me that they might well have been a promotional item, some being kept carefully and some being passed to the child(ren) of the house.
The fact that they do not all seem to have come from the same source coupled with the mix of mint and playworn examples indicates to me a likelihood that they are genuine rather than something supplied to the collectors' market latterly by a fraudster. however, that still leaves the question of whether they are code 1 or code 2. Given that the production Lesney label and the monochrome version seem to be identical apart from the colour, it is plausible that these non-standard labels came from Lesney.
Realistically though, it's probably like the SF 19d Yum Yums - we'll never know the full story for certain and each collector will have to make a value judgement as to whether the model is deserving of a place in the collection..

SMS88 wrote:The interesting point for me is that it would have cost nothing for Lesney to change the colour of the ink from orange to any other colour to make labels using the original printing plates however to make this black ink negative using printing plates rather than an ink jet machine would require making up new ´´negative´´ plates which put all the ink exactly where the original plates didnt print which combined with the lack of early 1970s provenance makes me very skeptical about the source of these labels!

Idris wrote:

SMS88 wrote:The interesting point for me is that it would have cost nothing for Lesney to change the colour of the ink from orange to any other colour to make labels using the original printing plates however to make this black ink negative using printing plates rather than an ink jet machine would require making up new ´´negative´´ plates which put all the ink exactly where the original plates didnt print which combined with the lack of early 1970s provenance makes me very skeptical about the source of these labels!

Fair comment, but two points:
1) Since we have yet to find any information on the Douglas company livery, we do not know whether the reverse, monochrome label is representative of that company's vehicles. If it is, then that would strongly suggest that the models represent some kind of promotional. If it isn't, then there's a serious credibility gap in the promotional argument.
2) The reverse labelled examples seem to be coming from different sources and in a wide range of condition. I would suggest that this indicates that they have been dispersed for some considerable time and some were felt to be worth keeping on a shelf, whilst others were given to children to play with. I admit that there's no proof, but what we now see dovetails very well with what would have happened to a promotional handed out a while ago.

Ergomatic wrote:[I am open to send my truck to Hugh, and he can compare it with his truck. Thickness/surface of the label, and an intresting point the tinge of the colours.The 2xpostage cost is mine of course. Hugh?

kwakers wrote:Very interesting Joe! Both companies could also be easy enough to get information on through antique truck and equipment collectors in England. If they may in fact both still be in business, we need an English Sherlock to visit and talk with them about these strange darker Dump Truck labels. It does not bother me at all that the odd labels never got recorded in the 70s, the company may have only ordered 200 or so for employees and good customers to take home. The mint ones appearing last year could be leftover models never given out, but they are now complemented by this used one in Ergomatic's collection he has shown us. It has seen a lot of hauling in it's day, so it's history seems to have been in play use years ago. A veteran collector like Nigel Cooper or Phillip Bowdidge may have the factual answer on this one if no one on the Forum remembers them. kwakers