37B Karrier Bantam SPW

[nickjones]

DOH - Dick beat me to it lol.

[kwakers]

I did spend some time trying to find the live 'spinning' video at your site Nick, but could only see a 'non-action' shot of a machine and woman with the number 13C Thames Wrecker on her conveyer. I had actually seen a live shot somewhere of axle spinning on that type machine showing an axle being 'spun' start to finish in just a brief moment. I am sure the machine had a foot spindle control for on and off with the operator holding just the model. The machine I saw in action had a drill press type handle to drop the tool to the axle, while the one shown at Nick's site shows none visible on hers......(?) How does she control the tool contacting the axle?
Not to worry about who was first Nick. Both Posts combined give an accurate picture of the process, variables, and the main 'look' of Lesney finished axle ends on regular wheeled models. You have summed up those 4 quite well, and Tractorboy has shown us extreme examples of that 4th very light spin and tool contact. Unfortunately, that fourth type axle end is the least desirable one we would want to find on even one axle of a rare Holy Grail variation like tractorboy's SPW Coke Truck........For once in my life I can be a skeptic rather than an optimist on a presented model, but for above given variables cannot rule either way on it's originality. kwakers

[SMS88]

I don't believe the axle=peening machine had a spinning tool head. If it did, why do peened axles show radial scoring (i.e. grooves running from the centre to the flared edge?)

The axle peening machines did have a spinning tool head, otherwise all of the axles would have a thickened stem as seen on fakes, also the miss strikes would not have cut into the wheel but would simply have broken it instead,
I believe the tool was lowered and raised from the axle end manually, The spinning of the tool head was switched on and off by a simple trigger.
If the tool was raised from the axle end while it was spinning the axle end would not have the radial spokes, if it was stopped while it was still in contact with the axle end it would be left with the radial spokes.
The length of time the spinning tool was in contact would also show in the finished product, A long spin would give the axle end a larger mushroom head while a short spin would only burr it lightly.
so in effect we have 4 possible results.
1, long spin - tool in contact when spinning stops = large mushroom with radial spokes
2, long spin - tool raised while still spinning = large mushroom head without radial spokes
3, short spin - tool in contact when spinning stops = small mushroom head with radial spokes
4, short spin - tool raised while still spinning = small mushroom head without radial spokes
Only number 4 really concerns us here but can be found on many commons as well, It is more likely this could be down to pressures to get a job completed in time.

Fascinating, this post + whole thread should be put somewhere where it can be read by anyone wanting to determine if axle ends are genuine or not - maybe as a sticky with title amended to something like ´´Spotting genuine axle ends´´?

[motorman]

As a novice RW collector i have to say Mick that this whole post makes things a lot less clearer to a collector like myself who is looking for that definative piece of information.

I have until now been pursuaded that axle ends are genuine if they show the clear and distinct characteristics of factory tooling......now it would appear that even if the axle ends give cause for concern because they do not conform to the norm for Factory produced axle ends then we should.....maybe...... perhaps..... kind of.....oh what the hell.....consider the possibility that they are genuine.

Putting this post as a sticky will do nothing but confuse things for less knowledgable RW collectors out there and i include myself amongst them.

[SMS88]

As a novice RW collector i have to say Mick that this whole post makes things a lot less clearer to a collector like myself who is looking for that definative piece of information.

I have until now been pursuaded that axle ends are genuine if they show the clear and distinct characteristics of factory tooling......now it would appear that even if the axle ends give cause for concern because they do not conform to the norm for Factory produced axle ends then we should.....maybe...... perhaps..... kind of.....oh what the hell.....consider the possibility that they are genuine.

Putting this post as a sticky will do nothing but confuse things for less knowledgable RW collectors out there and i include myself amongst them.

It makes axle ends crystal clear now to me. 4 different spun appearances can appear without any distortion to the thickness of the axle with pictures to show what they look like!

[kwakers]

The main problem with education on originality is that we are also giving lessons to fraudsters and fakers. Left as-is, collectors like Motorman can sort out what we have said by observation. In reality, 98% of the models we collect do not receive close axle inspection normally. It is the 2% of very rare wheel variations that we must watch axle ends on VERY carefully. You are not only confused now Motorman, you are experiencing the agony of sorting out acceptable axle ends at tractorboy's expense. We have all had our turn at trying to decide what is acceptable to each of us as 'original' axle ends. The more you study axles, the better chance you have of spotting badly faked axle ends.
I normally would agree with Mick's suggestion of clear pictures of the 4 type ends we have discussed here, but Please read my first statement in this Post as it also applies to my earlier warning on discussing tool design. I don't disagree with the idea of a sticky or added pictures, I just fear who may also use them to improve their 'skills'. kwakers

[Idris]

I did spend some time trying to find the live 'spinning' video at your site Nick, but could only see a 'non-action' shot of a machine and woman with the number 13C Thames Wrecker on her conveyer...

If someone could find that video and then post the link, i would be most grateful.

[numi]

Some of us are sceptical cos most of us had never had an opportunity to personally witness or except via any clips so perhaps members who have pics of wheels that were damaged during the rivetting/peening process please post those pics so that we can all view and make assessments to ascertain/determine whether some/most/all rounded axle-ends were actually electrically spun(via a spinning motor/spindle) or whether manually or pneumatically peened.Pics or vids of the actual peening/rivetting procedures are also welcome.
Thanks in advance.
numi

[kwakers]

I have spent several hours on the internet looking for the video that I had seen years ago probably linked to at LeFora. That short 2 minute clip Nick now has at the site is the only Lesney factory video I can seem to find now. As I said before Numi, the lady sitting at her workstation with the 13C Thames Wreckers on the conveyor next to her has a power machine in front of her that you can tell spins, but she does nothing with it during this newer shorter video. The other video that Nick may have even had on his old LeFora site clearly showed the model on it's side and the axles being finished by the operator. I give up! I know we saw it 3-4 years ago, but it may have been of English origin. Google and U Tube have multiple links to the newer 2011 2 minute video, but No other Lesney factory videos that I can dig up with my limited computer skills. kwakers

[tractorboy]

Not sure if these clips are of help

Found this clip - at the 1.24 mark the woman appears to be taking models off the line and uses a press but hard to see if it on the axles.
She appears to be putting down a group of horse boxes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoxWh6l ... fphhPbDokH

On this one at the 1.47 & 1.56 mark a worker is using a press but again hard to see what she is doing (description just says picking cars off the line).

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/model ... chbox+cars