kwakers wrote:I think George has asked the magic question, does anyone have one, or has anyone ever seen the non-towguide variation of this VW? I have only read about it, they must be VERY RARE. If the non towguide model exists, we need to have firsthand information on it to confirm it's details rather than guess which came first, the patent number or the towguide......kwakers
I am not sure if this is still of relevance, but here is a picture of this model's base without the tow guide:
Note that beside the patent number it is also missing the "(A)" behind the rear axle.
I am ashamed to say I do not remember clearly where I got this picture from (dated March 2010); it may have come from Hardy. This model may well be a pre-production item.
This baseplate shows no traces of chemical silver plating ,its clearly raw mazak which is a certain indicator of pre-pro components prior to the 1977 use of raw mazak baseplates on 2 pack military castings
Brad Pittiful wrote:
what about the wheels...it looks to me like its a tire with hubcap vs the tire with hub...does it look like that to anyone else?
Yes, definitely the earlier wheel type (I call it "black wheel with silver plated hubcap" vs. "silver plated wheel with black tyre (tire)") - which is perfectly logical for a pre-pro.
Whilst this proves the variation's existence, it does raise the question of whether it belongs in the variation table or should instead be relegated to a footnote.
By the sounds of it, the Forum is agreed that the baseplate is a pre-production component. Since it is a clear casting variation, Martin's Maxim's requirement for two examples does not apply [u[but[/u[, at the moment, there is no proof of release to the shops (c.f. glazed 23c).
Thank You Christian for the picture you have provided of this rare non towguide 67.
The wheels with only hub caps were on all the first releases of these 67s, so is naturally expected on this earliest example now known.
The bare Mazak base is quite uncommon to find, but appears on some 'common' castings like the 64 MG, and can be seen on bone-stock original Lesneys rushed through the factory.
The point of the Patent is a good one, and this seems to be a pre-pro base, as already suggested. It MAY have actually been the one in the Lesney Company's collection that Mike Stannard had access to when writting his 1985 Guide that included this unknown variation.
Pre-pro or not, your picture is a dream to older collectors like George, Tinman, Nick and I Christian. Thank you for sharing your valuable archives. It doesn't matter who owns it now or who kindly shared it with you, we can all enjoy it a bit now. If it was Hardy, he deserves Thanks for answering many of our concerns and 'Dreams' here. We have heard about this one, and now we can all have a picture of this rare one for ourselves. Could we also add it to the 'Holy Grail' Post Ghosty has started. (?) (Breaking the no-prepro 'Rule' already, what an outlaw I am when I step out of my cave.) If this is the only one, it may be THE 'Holy Grail' to many of us RW people here, pre-pro or not......kwakers
...In Nick's Code, it states the baseplate is 'Silver Plated' but to me when looking at the example pictures, they look like bright bare metal bases, not silver plated as we would see on the 'Plated' Yesteryear models.
...Bare metal baseplate on a model introduced in 1967, the same year #24c Silver Shadow saloon with painted black baseplate, maybe pulls the model shown here down to 'Pre-Pro' status!
...you would not introduce a model with 'Tow Guide' if there is no Recovery truck in the same range to tow it.
...not easy to see the axle-ends, but on the #24c, they start out with the large 'Boss' of both axles on the same side of the model, the 'Near-Side', becoming mixed about mid-way through 1967, but still minus any tow guide facility. The first #24c with tow guide (part 1), appears in early 1968 and other details include seperate hub and tyres and back to near-side large 'Boss' axle-ends, soft suspension, but still no patent No.
...the first #24c with patent No. comes from about mid-69, it now has the stiffer suspension, back to mixed axle-ends and part 2 of the tow guide.
Some of the above may help to date the VW and if other members come forward with similar specification details on specific models from 1967, that may help as well.
Because of your Marque specialization Ghosty, other than possibly Antonin, you are now the foremost expert in all Rolls models ever produced by Lesney. The progression of wheel colors and shades, axle types and treatment, colours and shades, along with some of our own known casting discoveries you have shared here are making these Rolls the best documented models we have ever seen here. Because the earliest models were 'common' back in the 60s, we collected versions with drivers side crimped axles, pass side crimped axles, opposite side riveted axles, etc., but have never documented many of these. Your knowledge and observations on the 24 Rolls can add some insight into the similar progression of the tow guide on this 67B.
My only observation: Who would ever 'Tow' a Rolls Royce?? Why did Lesney not release a well done Major Pack 'Ramp', 'Tiltbed', or 'Rollback Truck' from the 1960s for carrying Ghosty's favorites? They would have sold like wildfire. They would have been a favorite childhood toy to bring many smiles to us even today as we moved our collections around in the sand. Who would Tow a Rolls Royce Auto of ANY type?......Not even a da#*@% Yank ! kwakers
I have borrowed the few pictures on this thread and added one more, all with added notes based on my findings regards 'tow Guide', wheel design and 'Patent No,' introductions.
The first picture showing two models together (originally posted by "Kerbside"), is very interesting, because it shows a version with 'Tow Guide' and 'Patent No.' together on a model fitted with 'Push-In' hubs, replaced during 1968 by 'Seperate' hubs and seperate tyres!
'1-75 Series' baseplates started to appear with the (A) Stamping during 1967, the year #67b was introduced and because it has opening doors would have to have the 'Patent No.' on the baseplate as well, but we know for sure that for a while, the baseplate for #67b did not have it, then there is the 'Tow Guide', the only recovery truck in the range during 1967 was #13, Dodge Wrecker and while it seems to be a fairly good representation of the real truck, it surely was designed as a 'Stand Alone' model, as all the '1-75 Series' models are with no real consideration for it to be 'Pretend' towing another model from the range. This seems to have been addressed by someone at Lesney by thinking it would be a good sales idea for the #13 Wrecker to actually 'Pretend' tow other models in the range, but very few models had been designed at the front for easy hook-up to a recovery truck and re-tooling started towards the end of 1967.
It would be nice to see any Catalogue images from this early to late 1967 period, of cars hooked-up to the #13 Wrecker just for the sake of pictures of models to fill the Catalogue and maybe that was the idea behind giving virtually all the models in the range some means of being towed!
The next picture, from an unknown source (likely to be Internet), is interesting because it shows the box type alongside a red #67b. It clearly shows this box now has the little 'R' in a circle just at the foot of the 'X' in "Matchbox". This is indicating the term or name of..."MATCHBOX"...is now a registered term or name and this appeared on Boxes, Pocket Catalogues and Trade Catalogues during 1968.
The model itself has the 'Tow Guide', (A) Stamping, 'Seperate' hubs with seperate tyres, but NO Patent No. which for 1968 (the box type), should be on the baseplte!
GHOSTHUNTER.
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