#14c Bedford Lomas with Crimped Axles

[motorman]

What a wonderful discussion Numi has promted, I for one am totally hooked. I am reading with great interest all valuable knowledge being passed on by our RW experts on this variant. Keep it up guys, great stuff and thanks Numi for tracking down this little mystery #14.

[numi]

Thanks Kwakers & Motorman,much appreciated.
I seem to reach a dead-end on this Lomas.My head had been chasing my tail and my tail had been chasing my head....
Does any other member have anything to contribute? Besides Kwakers & myself, had anybody else slept over this one? C'mon Guys put the Lady out of her misery...
Thanks to All,
numi

[johnboy]

Hi Numi, I must admit that the decals look black on my monitor too, so that was a curved ball for me It's got the Matchbox world gripped! because it's right yet wrong if you know what I mean. Have you managed to get any information about its provenance, obviously you won't want to give the game away, but for example was it bought in a group and is their anything about the seller or their past sales that could indicate anything interesting.

[numi]

Hi Numi, I must admit that the decals look black on my monitor too, so that was a curved ball for me It's got the Matchbox world gripped! because it's right yet wrong if you know what I mean. Have you managed to get any information about its provenance, obviously you won't want to give the game away, but for example was it bought in a group and is their anything about the seller or their past sales that could indicate anything interesting.

Hi Johnboy,this Lomas was part of an old collection that he had bought earlier,so the seller says.I feel that hes peeved off with me cos i chopped his ask-price on this "common" used Gpw Lomas cos it was a gamble for me as i have never heard of a Crimped Lomas before.He wouldnt have agreed on the price had he not made a profit i guess.Hes a mixed-house toy seller.
Yes,it has the early blue lettering.
Thanks for your opinion.
all the best,numi

[kwakers]

Stay on that Seller's good side Numi, he may have more 'commons' out of that early collection you may be able to identify as a bit 'special'. When it comes to sales, I don't think a Dealer will stay peeved off for too long when the next sale comes along and your offers are fair. kwakers

[SMS88]

Hi Numi, I must admit that the decals look black on my monitor too, so that was a curved ball for me It's got the Matchbox world gripped! because it's right yet wrong if you know what I mean. Have you managed to get any information about its provenance, obviously you won't want to give the game away, but for example was it bought in a group and is their anything about the seller or their past sales that could indicate anything interesting.

Hi Johnboy,this Lomas was part of an old collection that he had bought earlier,so the seller says.I feel that hes peeved off with me cos i chopped his ask-price on this "common" used Gpw Lomas cos it was a gamble for me as i have never heard of a Crimped Lomas before.He wouldnt have agreed on the price had he not made a profit i guess.Hes a mixed-house toy seller.
Yes,it has the early blue lettering.
Thanks for your opinion.
all the best,numi

He has gained a new level of education and now has the chance to recognise more crimped models in his stock as potential factory specials. All differences in prices reflect differing levels of buyer-seller knowledge and need so whatever price he agreed to reflected the levels of his own knowledge & need - nothing immoral in a seller not knowing the true worth of his wares to potential buyers,happens all the time allover the world wherever money is spent with buyers usually overpaying out of expedience or ignorance of alternative sources of supply ..........
Blue lettering not black offers the prospect that this toy was a colour trial for stark white interiors if not cream paint imho

[numi]

Sms88 & Kwakers strongly believe that this Crimped-Wheel Lomas leans more towards being be a Color-Trial and i am now gaining momentum with their findings & suggestions and this includes the supposed wheel-trial with 9.5mm x 20 tread Gpw. I say thanks to u both,much appreciated.
Nicks mentions & shows us the other odd-size 10mm x 24 treads Gpw (also used on the #47a Trojan Van the front axles of the #16b Rotinoff) that is found on Code-15 and that being a very tiny run i presume.

Correction: I apologise for the error on my Dads part whereby he mentioned that this Crimped Wheeled Lomas has 10.2mm x 20 tread wheels.Upon a re-measure 2nights ago by Dad just before leaving on his usual long trips, it turns out to be most accurately 9.5mm x 20 treads and i confirmed. He also measured my unlisted Gpw with roof decal guides to be most accurately 8.8mm x 20 treads (i presume thats what we refer to as 9mm x 20 treads...true??) or have my Gpw's shrunk?

Kwakers mentions of this 9.5mm x 20 treads wheel type having been fitted to the #47a Trojan Van makes good considertion in that it also had crimped axle-ends which terminated in 1963 whilst rounded ends were used prior and still being used concurrently in production on most other models.This time-line lends favour/credence that this Crimped Lomas could have been made around the same time (between 1962-1963 going onto 1964 perhaps and possibly almost midway of the Lomas production-runs) shows machine crimps similar to the #47 Trojan Van.
A mid-way color trial with the Smooth Roof (without roof guides) by the R&D team is an extremely high possibility with the New White interior and the Cream Rear doors being assembled onto this model as a color-trial as well and then the odd 9.5 x 20 Gpw with crimped ends that has never been seen or heard of on another Bedford Lomas.Am i on the right lines here?

The issue we have on hand is the lack of dire provenance.
Are there any other members who are willing to shed some light and opinions with regards to this Crimped-wheeled Lomas.
Thanks again to Sms88 & Kwakers and those who responded,
numi

[GHOSTHUNTER]

PROVENANCE...

By the very nature of how and why Lesney models were produced and how we collect them today, will always throw up issues of originality and the lack of any provenance connected to those models.

Todays collectors have the benefit of model based forums and the combined knowledge and opinions of it's members, to help establish the credibility of models and until some provenance can be found for a model, we need to accept what the outcome is from all members who have expressed a view on that model.

I think a forum such as this one can be seen to be giving expertise and advice at all levels and a collector can be safe in thinking he or she has found an answer to a models status and collectively, the overall view of it's members can be taken as credible provenance.

The 'Lomas' featured in this thread, is a good example of the above comments and I am sure everybody enjoyed putting their views and comments forward.

Regards,
GHOSTHUNTER.

[motorman]

Here Here Ghosty!

[kwakers]

Because a lot of the very early collections were broken up and sold as their elderly collector owners passed, provenance will never be found for some very unique models 30+ years later. I bought a rear decaled 11A Tanker in yellow from Ron Slyder in the mid 70s from a huge old collection he had bought. With that model came the 23C Caravan with black door, a 50C Kennel Truck which has a strong blue color mixed in with the stock green, a yellow rollered 8A, and a few other notable rare pieces. Would he, or did he reveal the collector's name whose collection he was selling at West Point? No.... I would not have dreamt of asking him his trade secrets then, or even now unless I questioned any of those models' authenticity. Ron was a young kid, and quite new to the Toy trade at that time. I still have no idea which veteran's collection I now have some of my most prized variations from. That collector had to have been world class in order to have that rare mint black door Caravan that no experts had ever seen or heard of before then.
Pat Lamagne (spelling?) in New York was a good friend to us, and perhaps had one of the most complete early Lesney collections in the U.S. Even today, many years after my friend's funeral, I don't even have a hint as to who liquidated his world class collection. I have one of his #75 red Ferraris today, but it was purchased from a good friend /former collector/dealer, not Pat himself. It was many years later that I found it's Provenance, but it didn't matter when I bought it. It had taken years to learn who had found and released it from a Canadian Race Set. An insistence on 'Knowing' Provenance would have eliminated the purchase of most of the rare models now found in our collection. At the same time though......knowing the provenance of a handful of unique rare Lesneys I have passed on, would have made them a 'Must Have' instead of leaving them un-bought with our question of 'Is it REAL'. kwakers