73c Mercury Commuter

[nearlymint]

Mike Stannard's Code 1 on the 24 Rolls is in fact the hub capped version, not the solid BPW Idris. Mick can't prove Mike wrong on that one as far as my own early Stannard's Guide is concerned. That is another discussion for another time I guess. Cheers, kwakers

Please can I just ask what this is refering to, just want to clarify what the issue is about on the 24c.
Maybe start another thread to discuss.
Jason

[nickjones]

To the best of my knowledge I have never seen nor heard of any nul nada RW3c bodies fitted with SF baseplates & ZERO members of this forum have ever shared any photos of any factory rivited SF baseplate fitted to a RW3c body with its tiny arches.SF3c bodies would have been available no later than the spring of 1970 as an early G box release.

The odd 3c has a regular wheel baseplate with a superfast (enlarged wheel arch) body, not the other way around.

from the left, standard reg wheel, 2 reg baseplate sf body, 3 sf standard, 4 sf radiused arches.

[kwakers]

Mick,because of the RW #3 Ambulance wide arches existing in numbers now, we know that program was started before 1971 when RW had disappeared almost completely except for the spring loaded 'Motorway'. The Superfast #3 and several other models were illustrated in the 1971 catalog with large arches. This was printed in late 1970.
A view of the 1970 Lesney Pocket Catalog, printed in England in late 1969, clearly shows the Red #8 Superfast Mustang on page 35 along with the white Superfast version in a gift set on page 48. Colors were apparently done very randomly that first year.
On page 50 of that same catalog from late 1969, a red #15 Volkswagon is shown (All other models in the picture are regular wheels! ) on the lift next to a white one on the ground. Why do you call a red one out of timeline?? It is right there for us to clearly see from late 1969 in a factory publication.
I have a very mint 31C regular wheel metallic lime green 31 Lincoln, it's existence is NOT at all circumstantial. Numi has shown a very Mint 53 Ford Zodiac in green, and Stannard has that color variation with both types of front tow guides. Do you not see a pattern with SF colors being found in regular wheel Gift Sets in late 1969 and in 1970 Mick? The 31c Lincoln and also the #53 Zodiac you doubt in SF colors were last found in the G-2 Gift Sets. The 25D was still found in the Race and Rally Sets along with that #3 Ambulance. I believe these sets continued to be produced in 1970 just like the spring loaded race sets with the red #75 Ferrari, and were the source of many SF colored late regular wheels. They are found in penny numbers because the sets were seldom seen in stores, and they were expensive compared to a single toy. They were mainly a popular mail order Christmas Item, but we collectors had all those 'common' models. We collectors missed the rare colors and the kids got them to play with!!! We ran into most of our Gift sets in old Canadian stores later, and only found a set or two in small shops in the U.S. and at Toy Shows.
I do not see a Gift set specifically using the 73C in question here, but the 1969 Display Sets, and still later the 1970 U.S. issue TG7037 Gift Packs with assorted random models continued using up supplies of Regular Wheel models still in stock at Bronner's warehouse in New York. I am off topic, but had to answer Mick's challenge above with production facts......... kwakers

[SMS88]

To the best of my knowledge I have never seen nor heard of any nul nada RW3c bodies fitted with SF baseplates & ZERO members of this forum have ever shared any photos of any factory rivited SF baseplate fitted to a RW3c body with its tiny arches.SF3c bodies would have been available no later than the spring of 1970 as an early G box release.

The odd 3c has a regular wheel baseplate with a superfast (enlarged wheel arch) body, not the other way around.

from the left, standard reg wheel, 2 reg baseplate sf body, 3 sf standard, 4 sf radiused arches.

I know not the other way around even though timeline wise RW 3c bodies would have been in stock at the same time as SF baseplates - I wonder who owns this missing 3c variation that could so easily have been made but has never been reported before??
However as Christian F pointed out at the beginning of the thread,the 2 collectors who claim to own the mystery never photographed variation require acts of religious faith more familiar to American preachers than us if anyone is to believe that Lesney put RW baseplates from a model converted to SF sometime Jan - March 1970 onto SF bodies which were not tooled up until mid 1971 more likely late 1971 and then only for a very short run before the tooling completed its modifications regaining the gas tank flap in 1972. Fakes or lunchbox specials or perhaps NMCA/MICA collectables made for the mystery 1973 RW Giftset that Kwakers told us here on this thread that he believes was issued in 1973. Either way I am with Christian F on this variation,could not possibly be a routine store sold production variation.My money is on this variation being made by the same lunching Lesney employee quite likely at the same time who made the penny numbers of red RW15 VWs and blue RW25 Cortina GTs that circulate amongst wealthy collectors on Harvey´s client list.

[SMS88]

Mick,because of the RW #3 Ambulance wide arches existing in numbers now, we know that program was started before 1971 when RW had disappeared almost completely except for the spring loaded 'Motorway'. The Superfast #3 and several other models were illustrated in the 1971 catalog with large arches. This was printed in late 1970.
A view of the 1970 Lesney Pocket Catalog, printed in England in late 1969, clearly shows the Red #8 Superfast Mustang on page 35 along with the white Superfast version in a gift set on page 48. Colors were apparently done very randomly that first year.
On page 50 of that same catalog from late 1969, a red #15 Volkswagon is shown (All other models in the picture are regular wheels! ) on the lift next to a white one on the ground. Why do you call a red one out of timeline?? It is right there for us to clearly see from late 1969 in a factory publication.
kwakers

Dick, get out a magnifying glass and compare the car in your 1970 catalog with the cars shown in Nick´s excellent photograph here. I know you will find that the car matches Nick´s 3rd from the left which is indeed the 1970 SF3c bodyshell created for SF wheels. Then have a look at Nick´s listing, 1st photograph, car on the right hand side and compare those arches to the 1970 SF3c body you have already examined. http://www.vintagebritishdiecasts.co.uk ... /sf3-c.htm
They are different - the arches are even wider but not the same as the 1977 TP re-tooled body Nick shows which featured cast shut rear door. Yes folks,Lesney cut those 3c arches even wider again sometime in 1971 for wide wheels but NOBODY has found a 1971 3c widest arch body ever fitted with RW - the only RW3c with SF bodies have the 1970 intermediate size wheel arches not the 1971 max size arches. The 3c followed the same pattern as the 24c - arches enlarged 1st time for thin SF and then again in 1971 for wide SF.
I have seen the red VW in the service station Giftset -perhaps some of those red RW15 were indeed made for this Giftset in 1970 to use up leftover RW15 baseplates because this casting was indeed one of those rushed out as SF models in 1969 most likely leaving unused baseplates in stock -same situation with RW33 Muira baseplates with gold bodies for 1970 Matchbox Motorways. Any left over RW73c baseplates to leave the factory in 1970 would have been matched up to standard RW73c bodies because they remained unchanged in production well into 1971. The light blue Iso came out with thin SF wheels late 1971 - I wonder who will be the first collector to own a RW version publicly

[kwakers]

I now understand your later date for the double expanded arches and closed rear door on the #3 Ambulance Mick. Nick's picture shows the variations quite well.
Just remember that the last #14 Iso Grifo RW you just mentioned as well as the last #24 Rolls Royce RW were the other 2 cars found in that G-2 Transporter Gift Set. Odd SF bodies on those are also possible, just as the lime green #31 and metallic green #53 SF colored bodies we discussed above. Just as you thought the red VW body 'out of timeline', we may not know all the colors Lesney actually tried in 1969 as 'Trials'.
If we give the 73C without gas cap 6 months to document or find other survivors, will that work?? kwakers

[SMS88]

I now understand your later date for the double expanded arches and closed rear door on the #3 Ambulance Mick. Nick's picture shows the variations quite well.
Just remember that the last #14 Iso Grifo RW you just mentioned as well as the last #24 Rolls Royce RW were the other 2 cars found in that G-2 Transporter Gift Set. Odd SF bodies on those are also possible, just as the lime green #31 and metallic green #53 SF colored bodies we discussed above. Just as you thought the red VW body 'out of timeline', we may not know all the colors Lesney actually tried in 1969 as 'Trials'.
If we give the 73C without gas cap 6 months to document or find other survivors, will that work?? kwakers

I think its foolish to ever list variations for which no photographic evidence exists based upon the words of collectors who are not prepared to share photographs and who are known for owning pre-pros,colour trials AND LUNCHBOX SPECIALS.
The same standard of proof for all variations should be required, good quality photographs.
We had a discussion on the old forum about the Stannard code 1 for the 24c with the result that Nick removed it from the codes because it clearly was never mass produced for store sale with only 1 poor photo of Jim G ´example available which even he conceded could be a lunchbox special

[Idris]

I agree. I think that, at the very least, photographic evidence of at least one of these models is required.
If the owners wish to remain anonymous, so be it, but that doesn't prevent them from sharing photographs anonymously via Nick (just as they have already done with the information regarding this variation's existance). failing that< I would settle for the results of a first-hand inspection by a trustworthy third party (such as Nick).

[kwakers]

JEEZ...LOL....Did you guys miss Nick's Post about once having pictures of this variation, but losing them from his computer quite some time ago?? As Joe has stated many times, he had all kinds of articles and pictures on his computer that have been sadly lost forever, as have the ones that Mark has deleted from his site. Christian has shown us some amazing shots out of his archives, so he has been a bit luckier on his computer archives than most. Please re-read Nick's Post about his computer loses. He has already done what you are now asking before adding that variation, and the whining persists about we secretive collectors. I am one of THEM without a camera or the skills or interest in one. Is the picture becoming a little clearer about why we are reluctant to join Forums and share some of our most prized rarities that sometimes do not fit 'KNOWN' Lesney paints, components, or timelines, yet they exist scattered all over the world...........
As I now think about that, I withdraw my 6 months of looking for capless Wagons idea, Nick has seen them pictured and based this variation on his observations as he has already said earlier. The BPW Rolls was added because Nick had seen one, Stannard never had that one listed in my early guide Mick. If Nick says it is O.K., I will never question the variation and I know there are probably others besides Jim's that were shipped to distributers as early samples. Did it hurt to have that Rolls listed as it appeared on the box art? Stannard put an asterisk next to variations he considered possible pre-pros, but still kept those rarities listed in his Guide for collectors to note.
I continue my pursuit of the capless RW Merc. Wagon because I added the variation to my Stannard's quite some time ago.......Cheers, Out of my Cave and into my Lorry kwakers

[SMS88]

JEEZ...LOL....Did you guys miss Nick's Post about once having pictures of this variation, but losing them from his computer quite some time ago?? As Joe has stated many times, he had all kinds of articles and pictures on his computer that have been sadly lost forever, as have the ones that Mark has deleted from his site. Christian has shown us some amazing shots out of his archives, so he has been a bit luckier on his computer archives than most. Please re-read Nick's Post about his computer loses. He has already done what you are now asking before adding that variation, and the whining persists about we secretive collectors. I am one of THEM without a camera or the skills or interest in one. Is the picture becoming a little clearer about why we are reluctant to join Forums and share some of our most prized rarities that sometimes do not fit 'KNOWN' Lesney paints, components, or timelines, yet they exist scattered all over the world...........
As I now think about that, I withdraw my 6 months of looking for capless Wagons idea, Nick has seen them pictured and based this variation on his observations as he has already said earlier. The BPW Rolls was added because Nick had seen one, Stannard never had that one listed in my early guide Mick. If Nick says it is O.K., I will never question the variation and I know there are probably others besides Jim's that were shipped to distributers as early samples. Did it hurt to have that Rolls listed as it appeared on the box art? Stannard put an asterisk next to variations he considered possible pre-pros, but still kept those rarities listed in his Guide for collectors to note.
I continue my pursuit of the capless RW Merc. Wagon because I added the variation to my Stannard's quite some time ago.......Cheers, Out of my Cave and into my Lorry kwakers

Too late Dick,the RW24c with plain bpw left the variation table not long after Nick began the 1st forum - here we are over 2 years later and surprise surprise none have been publicly found,not even any fake ones !!!
After the comments here this month about the glazed pre-pro 23c having its windows drilled out for purposes not yet proven but in theory anyone with a spinning tool could rivit such a glazing set into any mint 23c , some mainstream collectors are seriously considering the very real possibilty that secretive high end deep pocketed collectors buying unrecorded variations,unrecorded pre-pros,colour trials,factory samples or lunchbox specials from individuals who dont offer those models for sale in public may well be buying mere fakes or customs which they are duped into keeping secret & not sharing good photographs of them when knowledgeable folks here could point out why a toy is an obvious fake or custom rather than a Lesney original. Nick´s variation guide was never intended to code models which were not shipped to shops - pre-pros and colour trials are mere photo captions or footnotes rather than falsely presented as products made for pocket money retail sale that anybody can collect today.
Anyone here who chooses to believe without photos that a body that was not re-designed or tooled or manufactured before last half of 1971 would appear as a mass produced RW 18 months or more after the #73 was converted to SF at the beginning of 1970 has got lots and lots and lots and lots of faith in a fantasy never made for retail sale. This SF body RW73c is unlike the run of crimped axle reverse 13d ordered by Stone + Brennan which I claimed deserves to be coded once we were given good photos of Nigel´s playworn example which turned up at a 1970s London swapmeet proving that unknown quantities of extras were made and used by Lesney within the UK for unknown multiple purposes,perhaps even stuffed into boxes and sold!!