Is this a counterfeit? Or the real deal.

[motorman]

Here's another iffy offering - just take a look at the turntable rivet. To my knowledge this is at least the third time that this model has been listed on Ebay.

Well dodgy mate

[numi]

Here's another iffy offering - just take a look at the turntable rivet. To my knowledge this is at least the third time that this model has been listed on Ebay.

The turntable rivet looks ok.I would worry more about the small-ends of the axles.
numi

[numi]

I would be cautious with this seller that has suddenly listed many rares.Check out his other models as well.
numi

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-lesney-m ... 43c3c46d28

[motorman]

Numi

That front rivet on the Hatra looks as though it has been tampered with IMHO. The edges of the rivet look like some one has tried to make it look normal but it is clearly distorted are not what you would expect to see of a spun rivet. If you compare it to the rear rivet it looks so poor in comparison. Why do you consider it ok??

[Tinman]

I don't see a reason why anyone would mess with the shovel rivet ... just put on four red hubs and that's all that is needed.

[Idris]

I have doubts about the paint job which looks thin to me. I therefore suspect a repaint and can only assume that the shovel was detached as part of the process.

[numi]

Numi

That front rivet on the Hatra looks as though it has been tampered with IMHO. The edges of the rivet look like some one has tried to make it look normal but it is clearly distorted are not what you would expect to see of a spun rivet. If you compare it to the rear rivet it looks so poor in comparison. Why do you consider it ok??

Hi MM,
The reason why all the rear base-rivets looks different and has full-cover paint is that the main casting and the baseplate are coupled first as a unit and then goes thru the painting process.The axles & wheels thereafter gets fitted to the main casting.
The turntables incl the bucket is a separate piece that gets coupled to the main casting after its painting process as well resulting in a finished Hatra.
These however are not spun rivets but are just flared by a pneumatic rivetting tool/system/mechanism or perhaps in the case of these Hatras i presume that they were hand-held together in position and manually rivetted by a foot or hand operated system.The "Old Boys" could tell us more about this operation/process.
The base rivetting in question is undoubtedly factory original and as i mentioned above that these perhaps were done with/by the hand-held rivetting process.This hand-held process/procedure could easily cause this rivet to go off centre or basically not positioned correctly before the rivetting was completed.
I have attached 2x pics of 2x different Hatras and coincidentally one looks similar to the one in question and the other to show that different results are achieved at different circumstances(incl the possibility of different rivetting methods or tools) with different operators on different shifts.Im sure some members will find these oddly struck rivets on their Hatras as well.
Tinman hit the nail on the head by stating/questioning why someone would have to split this common original yellow Hatra casting in order to "create" a new red hub variation that does not effect or even warrant a casting or crossover variant at that or the paint color in its entirety.If this was any 2-tone Hatra in question then thats a different subject altogether and as previously discussed on the old forum.
I hope im correct with the above and hope this helps u understand in some way or another.
numi

[motorman]

Numi,

A Very Happy new Year to you.

Your explanation has some credibility however i find it somewhat surprising that half the Hatra was Machine finished whilst the other half Hand finished????

If your explanation is correct then that would obviously provide a good explanation as to why that front rivet looks so poor!! I hope that some of the other Intelligency on this forum will add some wealth to this discussion.

[Idris]

Here's a close=up of the turntable rivet taken from the Ebay listing. I would invite Forum members to compare it with the photographs provided by Numi (above). (Personally, I would maintain that it does not look like a factory-pressed rivet.)
I would appreciate comments regarding the paint covering (which looks suspiciously thin to me).

[numi]

Hi Idris heres 2more pics of the same specimen that resembles the one in question.
Also note that the metal piece that runs across the inside of the rivet-pot is actually a chip off the stem and it seems that the specimen in question also has it.
The paint looks original,doesnt seem too thin at all and sometimes colors may vary under different lighting.Flourescent lighting does make the yellows look/seem more hazed or a bit creamish.If one use/adjust the contrast tools then the original yellows appear.
numi