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“Nick Jones wrote
Actually looking at the model again it does seem to have an excess of yellow paint around the base rivets, could this be due to the rivets being flattened rather than spun ?.”

“Kwakers wrote
It is very strange to see this one occur in mid-production, and revert back to a much slower crimp process. Perhaps this was a trial for the oval type of rear hole on these trucks? Kwakers”

"we may be able to get an idea of survival rates by the numbers held in Forum member's collections. kwakers"



Thank you for the comments Kwakers, Nick and Nearlymint.

I think if it had been a trial for the oval type hole they would have used the smooth axle support casting given it was earlier. It would be nice to know how soon the casting was changed from smooth axle brace to narrow axle brace.

It is actually this mid production that interests me the most. The three known examples all originate from the USA so my thought is perhaps a batch were only shipped to USA.

It will be interesting in future as 21d’s with steel pins are checked more closely by members to see if others show up in other countries.

There were actually three types of rear pivot holes, oval, round/straight and round/tapered. I think the one that was most successful in terms of models surviving was the oval with the steel pin combination. Often though the hole at the dome end can have damage as a result of the riveting ( rounding ) of the other end. The crimping method eliminated this problem.

Actually if you think about how the chassis and barrel would have had to have been held (during production) to rivet (round over) the barrel pin I think it would have been quicker to crimp the spiral end and with a lot less damage.

Nick could you expand on your comment of the rivets flattened rather than spun. This is one model where paint and base rivet finish can be many and varied and quite interesting as to why there are so many different appearances.

In my spares for sale I just found the only crimped end version I seem to have yellowfoden. All mine are definitely U.S. found models, and they may not all have been bought here locally. I lost my originals, and bought only 3 spares because they were so new and 'Common' in 1970 when the Superfasts replaced them. The crimped end on mine does not look like a flat one, it almost seems like some sort of a crimp leaving two triangles into opposite sides of the pin instead of just two flats like the early simple crimped axle ends. I have no example of this Cement Truck without axle braces, so I can't say which pin end that one used. I believe the non-braced axles had to be early, and may have been limited in production numbers before the axles were braced. I don't have enough knowledge on these to state that as fact at all. If that model without axle braces is found to have the 'Crimped Pin', this could turn out to be the earliest Pin treatment, and possibly not mid production as I had thought originally. Do you have this earliest version yellowfoden? (Perhaps a spare from anyone for sale as a kwakers Christmas stocking stuffer, Hint, Hint, LOL)
I have cataloged two plastic pinned models with the early oval hole also. I am off to drive my Lorry and don't have time to check Nick's listings right now. Stannard missed both of these. One is without base hole, but with the braces over the axles. The other version has the base with hole, and also has the later braces on platforms over the axle holes.
Thanks for adding another variation that I would have sold off as a 'Spare' yellowfoden. Cheers!........ kwakers

Hi Yellowfoden.
When the rivets are spun it usually leaves some trace of the tool revolving either in the metal, the paint finish or where the paint has been removed by the tool, There does not appear to be any evidence that the tool was revolving on your model.

Thank you Nick,

For a while there (I was hoping) I thought you were going to be able to say the month they stopped the pressed rivets process and started the spun type process that may shed some light on this mid production crimped pin.

Yes, pressed they are and with a bit of pressure too. I have another 21d where the rivet is almost pressed flush with the base. These are quite different in appearance to the ones often seen on the later casting with the base hole.

I am hoping to handle another of these crimped pin versions sometime in the future ( to be on loan to me, to compare and photograph ) so it will be nice to compare all aspects. I will keep you informed.

The crimped drum pin and the pressed rivets would both suggest it was made during a power outage

nickjones wrote:The crimped drum pin and the pressed rivets would both suggest it was made during a power outage

By candlelight?

Idris wrote: By candlelight?

Maybe, but they would need to be very careful, The ground where the factory was built on used to be used for making explosives.

As promised above here are two images of a second example of the 21d Foden Concrete Truck that boasts a steels barrel pin with the tip crimped at the gear end.
The variation is the same as the one shown earlier in this thread.

This is a play worn example,( still a bit of concrete in the back wheel ) hence the lack of flaking paint on the rivets as shown in the first un-played with example.

So I can now confirm that three models have been inspected and a further one sited on line.
The three that have been inspected all have the same details including the semi circular indentation around the left side base rivet ( right hand as you look at photo).
The other common factor is all were found/sourced/seen in different states of USA and to date I have not seen one offered elsewhere.