16d Case Buldozer Casting-Variant

[SMS88]

This isnt MCCH - Nick has chosen not to follow the MCCH practice with range names and cut off dates. Instead Nick has made one forum to discuss toys with Regular wheels,one forum to discuss toys with Superfast wheels and one to discuss post Lesney Matchbox. I wonder what proportion of RW collectors would refuse space to a yellow hubs #61 Alvis on the grounds that it was a 1970 release - a tiny minority I suspect - RW are RW and SF are SF. The 16d never joined the SF range -its G box very clearly does NOT say Superfast ergo Lesney never regarded it as a SF model. Just because MCCH has regarded it as SF is no reason for Nick to follow such a peverse decision.The RW #34c VW Camper was still in production into 1971 before its demise and the RW #21 Foden and #42 Crane were also still RW models into 1971 - I wonder how many collectors with a strict cut off date of 1969 exclude the variations of these made in 1970-71?? #39 Tractors + #40 trailers with wheels from the 1970 deleted #52 BRM & 1970 SF converted #19 Lotus are also 1970-71 models that may have inspired tinman to relax his strict 1969 cut off date

[nickjones]

Re: locking the codes - I will sleep on it, never occurred to me that by keeping my coding flexible might have actually dissuaded collectors from using it. We must have 95% of variations now, or maybe I should lock each of the codes as I update them?

[Tinman]

Mick, I myself, make it a strict rule never to criticize the collecting style or preference of others. I find such criticism to be rude, obnoxious and elitist. It stifles the verdant nature that Nick's forum inspires. I am offended by your comments and attempt to perform some sort of analysis or dissection of my particular collecting preferences (for whatever reason or reasons that remain unclear).

I mention my collecting preferences so that it is clear what and how I collect and how that relates to eras. I did not share my preferences so that they could be challenged as being in some unworthy minority category. How popular my collecting preferences may be matters not to me. On the other hand; how "correct" or "popular" they may seem to you is none of my concern and does not affect my hobby enjoyment. I would guess that the majority of collectors do not collect in a manner based upon anything other than their own personal preference and that they too feel no need to have their preferences picked apart for the sake of your circular reasoning.

Since you brought up the mcch, I will address the subject. Their forum categories were inspired by the published works and catalogs of several noted authors and based upon their study of the hobby. I make no comparison to that web forum and it has nothing to do with this discussion or with the eras which are factual and widely accepted.

While Nick's regular wheels forum does not note a specific date in the forum title, the Superfast chatroom does indeed note specific dates for the era (dates which Christian also points out to be in error with regards to the actual use of the Superfast logo/name usage). However, Nick does indeed note specific dates for the regular wheel era in many other locations throughout his web pages.

Further, you seem intent on correcting me as if I have attempted to classify certain models (with non-speed wheels and treads) as being "Superfast." I never made such comments and I am only addressing the Superfast "era" in which some models with non-speed wheels were made. Many of those models have distinct changes that clearly categorized them as products of the Superfast era. That is an undeniable fact.
I thank you in advance to please refrain from putting words in my mouth and from twisting my statements to conform to your inaccurate rebuttals.

[Tinman]

Re: locking the codes - I will sleep on it, never occurred to me that by keeping my coding flexible might have actually dissuaded collectors from using it. We must have 95% of variations now, or maybe I should lock each of the codes as I update them?

I recently mentioned (somewhere else on the forums) that the only real complaint I hear (concerning the online variation catalog) is that the Codes shift with every new addition. That means collectors have to update their own digital records and/or place new tags on models and/or edit their hand written records. I know a lot of people are still using Stannard codes and adding in the newer discoveries at the end of the Stannard Codes with notes to indicate where the model falls in the time line.

Others are Coding models from the Stannard and also using the online variation catalog. In effect, they are coding models twice (once from the Stannard and along side that with codes from the online catalog) and moaning every time the online catalog is updated.

And yes, some simply use the Stannard codes and don't bother with the online codes because they can and do shift. That does not mean those same people ignore the data in the online catalog, just that they find it too unstable for coding hundreds (sometimes thousands) of models.

[SMS88]

There would actually be no need to lock the codes once Nick´s collector database is up and running because each collector´s check mark for a particular variation would follow that variation regardless of its actual code.I hope this collector checklist will be made in 2014, it is the logical next step to really add value for collectors here,being able to print off or view online a masterlist of variations owned.
I had no intention of criticising tinman´s collecting policy , I am sorry we have another of those transatlantic differences of interpretation - I know my own criteria,collect only what i like, isnt followed by many with the completist bug. My point is that I have read the forum titles - the Superfast forum has the subtitle ´´British made Matchbox Superfast 1969-83´´ which contains no reference to ´´ERA´´ so it literally means in english, actual Superfast toys NOT regular wheels toys made in those years. Nick has made a very logical forum title decision because the millions of RW trucks & tractors and #34 VW vans manufactured in 1970 & 71 are often impossible to tell from the 1968-69 versions of the same toys.

[Tinman]

My point is that I have read the forum titles - the Superfast forum has the subtitle ´´British made Matchbox Superfast 1969-83´´ which contains no reference to ´´ERA´´ so it literally means in english, actual Superfast toys NOT regular wheels toys made in those years.

How are those dates not a specific era? If the model was made during those dates, it belongs to that era. Ergo the best place to discuss the model is in the forum dealing with the point in time when the model was made. Especially when most of them have variations specific to that era.

Keeping these variations clearly separate helps prevent people from thinking a 16d with black treads, placed into an F box was a rare variation made before 1970 (an issue that Christian just dealt with on another forum).

Should all Matchbox Originals be discussed in the Regular Wheels forum? They have regular wheels and are variations of vintage castings. Or should they be discussed with the other models from the modern era? Forums follow eras and eras cover the models made within those timelines regardless of how or upon what they roll.

[SMS88]

My point is that I have read the forum titles - the Superfast forum has the subtitle ´´British made Matchbox Superfast 1969-83´´ which contains no reference to ´´ERA´´ so it literally means in english, actual Superfast toys NOT regular wheels toys made in those years.

How are those dates not a specific era? If the model was made during those dates, it belongs to that era. Ergo the best place to discuss the model is in the forum dealing with the point in time when the model was made. Especially when most of them have variations specific to that era.

Keeping these variations clearly separate helps prevent people from thinking a 16d with black treads, placed into an F box was a rare variation made before 1970 (an issue that Christian just dealt with on another forum).

Should all Matchbox Originals be discussed in the Regular Wheels forum? They have regular wheels and are variations of vintage castings. Or should they be discussed with the other models from the modern era? Forums follow eras and eras cover the models made within those timelines regardless of how or upon what they roll.

The answer is simple - to quote Nick´s choice of title for this sub-forum
´´Lesney Matchbox regular wheels 1-75
All regular wheel 1-75 or miniatures topics ´´
ALL MEANS ALL UNLESS anyone can persuade Nick to add a 1969 cut off date but then we would be dumped into the silly MCCH situation where models which DONT have SF wheels are mixed in with my favourites, the real SF!
Matchbox originals are not from original Lesney tooling as far as i know but are merely modern copies made from new tooling that produces close but different copies NOT more originals so naturally they belong in the post Lesney after 1983 category which Nick has carefully chosen not to specifiy any sort wheels

[Tinman]

I disagree.

[ChFalkensteiner]

My point is that I have read the forum titles - the Superfast forum has the subtitle ´´British made Matchbox Superfast 1969-83´´ which contains no reference to ´´ERA´´ so it literally means in english, actual Superfast toys NOT regular wheels toys made in those years. Nick has made a very logical forum title decision because the millions of RW trucks & tractors and #34 VW vans manufactured in 1970 & 71 are often impossible to tell from the 1968-69 versions of the same toys.

I just have to mention - again - the regular wheel models which were introduced after 1969: Hondarora, Big Bull, Seasprite Helicopter, S.P. Gun, Honda Police Motorcycle, generic Combine Harvester, Caterpillar Bulldozer etc. (and finally in 1982 we got the first Matchbox Miniatures model with no wheels at all: the generic Helicopter).

Those are clearly not Superfast models, as they do not have Superfast wheels, axles or wheel strips, and they were never called "Superfast" by the manufacturer, neither on their baseplates nor on their packaging (except if packed in generic blisterpacks).

I do not think it would make much sense to discuss those in a forum devoted to the models introduced before 1970. They clearly belong to what is commonly referred to as the "Superfast era". Therefore in my opinion the distinction between the categories should never be made based on wheel styles alone.

On the other hand I do agree that variations made after 1969 of regular wheel models introduced before 1970 should be within the scope of aforementioned forum, simply because most collectors of those models are interested in them, and in many cases it is difficult to determine when exactly a particular variation was made.

So to sum up my opinion, the distinction between the subject matters of the "regular wheel" forum and the "Superfast" forum should be based on both introduction dates and wheel styles. The former should deal with models introduced before 1970 and having regular wheels (including variations made later on), while the latter should deal with models either introduced in 1969 and having Superfast wheels or introduced after 1969, regardless of the wheels they have. The most appropriate title for the latter forum would be "Superfast models introduced in 1969 and Matchbox Miniatures introduced after 1969". (Company name and/or country of manufacture could be added as means of distinction from other forums - my personal preference is the company name cast on the bases, but that is yet another controversial subject.)

The year 1969 must be treated as a special case because in that year both traditional regular wheel models and the first Superfast models were introduced.

Finally, please bear in mind that the manufacturer itself never referred to the whole range as "Superfast". From 1960 onward it was always the "Matchbox Series 1-75" until the name "Matchbox Miniatures" was officially used from 1983 onward. The range just happened to contain mostly Superfast models for a while, but never exclusively.

[SMS88]

I just have to mention - again - the regular wheel models which were introduced after 1969: Hondarora, Big Bull, Seasprite Helicopter, S.P. Gun, Honda Police Motorcycle, generic Combine Harvester, Caterpillar Bulldozer etc. (and finally in 1982 we got the first Matchbox Miniatures model with no wheels at all: the generic Helicopter).

Those are clearly not Superfast models, as they do not have Superfast wheels, axles or wheel strips, and they were never called "Superfast" by the manufacturer, neither on their baseplates nor on their packaging (except if packed in generic blisterpacks).

I do not think it would make much sense to discuss those in a forum devoted to the models introduced before 1970. They clearly belong to what is commonly referred to as the "Superfast era". Therefore in my opinion the distinction between the categories should never be made based on wheel styles alone.

On the other hand I do agree that variations made after 1969 of regular wheel models introduced before 1970 should be within the scope of aforementioned forum, simply because most collectors of those models are interested in them, and in many cases it is difficult to determine when exactly a particular variation was made.

So to sum up my opinion, the distinction between the subject matters of the "regular wheel" forum and the "Superfast" forum should be based on both introduction dates and wheel styles. The former should deal with models introduced before 1970 and having regular wheels (including variations made later on), while the latter should deal with models either introduced in 1969 and having Superfast wheels or introduced after 1969, regardless of the wheels they have. The most appropriate title for the latter forum would be "Superfast models introduced in 1969 and Matchbox Miniatures introduced after 1969". (Company name and/or country of manufacture could be added as means of distinction from other forums - my personal preference is the company name cast on the bases, but that is yet another controversial subject.)

The year 1969 must be treated as a special case because in that year both traditional regular wheel models and the first Superfast models were introduced.

Finally, please bear in mind that the manufacturer itself never referred to the whole range as "Superfast". From 1960 onward it was always the "Matchbox Series 1-75" until the name "Matchbox Miniatures" was officially used from 1983 onward. The range just happened to contain mostly Superfast models for a while, but never exclusively.

Christian has made good points here that offer us a simple solution that should please everyone. The RW forum title should stay exactly as it is but to make sure that there is no scope for confusion,I would like to suggest to Nick that the subtiltle for the Superfast forum is changed from ´´British made Matchbox Superfast 1969-83´´ to ´´British made Matchbox Superfast & all 1970-1983 newly tooled 1-75 series´´ which would cover all the last Lesney 1-75 models except the genuine RW era castings which would continue to be discussed on the RW forum regardless of the year in which they were made