VW Beetle 25b

[Squid]

And they're all rare variations. I'm sure it's possible that one person can have extreme good luck in finding rarities, but I'd more strongly suspect the actions of a shyster whose intent is to deceive. What might this Kevin say if I insisted on seeing X-rays of the models before purchasing?

I'm beginning to wonder about the authenticity of the 25B with BPW, too. Unless I see one in sealed factory packaging or an assembly line photo of them, I'll continue to have such doubts.

[chrisflandria]

Looking closer with a magnifier, the rounded ends and rivet looks allwright to me.
Inside the rivet is a little shade of the original paint.
The inside of the tire center doesn't look damaged.
Next question: when the axles are selfmade. How do they fix it ?
Help, I Need an expert

[DrJeep]

I believe I’m correct in saying that there is an element of doubt regarding whether the BPW 25b actually exists as a genuine Lesney product, the idea being that it has crept into the variation listings through incorrect identification of BPW Budgie/Morestone VW Beetles (no. 8 in the “Esso” Petrol Pump series).

That’s an interesting theory. The colour is very similar, so it’s an error that could be made. It’s also surprising that black wheels weren’t used on the Beetle, as by 1964 they were common. I wonder if there was actually a very short - maybe experimental - run?

Kevin's offerings on Marktplaast are here. Unfortunately, as far as I am aware, there is no way of looking at sold items/expired listings on Marktplaats.

This doesn’t look good!

Looking closer with a magnifier, the rounded ends and rivet looks allwright to me.
Inside the rivet is a little shade of the original paint.
The inside of the tire center doesn't look damaged.
Next question: when the axles are selfmade. How do they fix it ?
Help, I Need an expert

If you can get good pictures we’ll take a look!

[chrisflandria]

promised guys, just have to wait for my daughter when she comes to visit.

[GHOSTHUNTER]

Home made axle-ends are just so different from the Lesney factory axle-ends so if you need to create a rare variation you must remove the 'Flare' at one end of the axle and the smaller flare will always be chosen for manipulation because of less metal to rework.

The picture below is of a model recently discussed here on this forum and if you look at the axle-end it is quite clear to most collectors this axle-end does not look right.

With a pair of small pliars the flare has been squashed enough to allow the original wheel to be taken off this axle and a replaacement wheel putting back on. The problem is to put back the flare which will prevent the wheel from falling off the axle and it is virtually immposible to rework this axle-end with the same pliars to bring back the flaring, so some fakers resort to tapping the end of the axle with a pin hammer to try and create a mushroom type of flare but this will cause the axle to bend in the middle if too much force is administered!

For a much better factory finish type of axle the faker can purchase new axles he can cut to length and using the tool supplied will be able to create a nice neat looking axle-end but while this type does look good, it is still not exactly as it would have come from the factory because the key word here is...GOOD. These types of new axles simply do look too good so is a give away to them also being fake items!

[Tinman]

I believe I’m correct in saying that there is an element of doubt regarding whether the BPW 25b actually exists as a genuine Lesney product, the idea being that it has crept into the variation listings through incorrect identification of BPW Budgie/Morestone VW Beetles (no. 8 in the “Esso” Petrol Pump series).

You can include me in that group of "strong doubters."

This variation was almost unheard of outside of Charlie Mack's books (which are riddled with errors that get repeated with each new printing). I also recall that every time someone posted photos of a BPW VW, on the old mcch forums, a rash of BPW VW's would suddenly appear on ebay. Nearly always being sold by the "usual suspects."

Also of note is that while Mr. Mack listed the black wheeled VW as a variation, he assigned an astronomical price to what would be a very rare variation. Mack also had no example of his own nor had access to any photos of a BPW model. As fakers/fraudsters get better and better at faking the axle ends, the latest crop of these fakes fool more and more people. To date, I've yet to see a BPW VW that I would consider authentic.

While new variations still can be discovered today, this is unlikely to be one of them. Mike Stannard's exhaustive research was unable to produce a viable example of this model and he didn't bother to list it in his catalog. Nick Jones lists the variation but I think he probably did so only because others had listed it (further perpetuating the myth). Nick was unable to locate an example and couldn't even locate a photo of one for his listings. The best rule of thumb, for this variation, is to consider every example found as fake until it can be proven otherwise. If no proof can be offered, if provenance is not available or not reliable, then it requires a professional opinion that would be accepted by an indemnity agency. Lacking any of these, then it's another conversation piece with the corresponding low value of a tampered model.

That's my opinion and a set in stone guideline for my own personal collecting.

[yellowfoden]

While new variations still can be discovered today, this is unlikely to be one of them. Mike Stannard's exhaustive research was unable to produce a viable example of this model and he didn't bother to list it in his catalog. Nick Jones lists the variation but I think he probably did so only because others had listed it (further perpetuating the myth). Nick was unable to locate an example and couldn't even locate a photo of one for his listings. The best rule of thumb, for this variation, is to consider every example found as fake until it can be proven otherwise. If no proof can be offered, if provenance is not available or not reliable, then it requires a professional opinion that would be accepted by an indemnity agency. Lacking any of these, then it's another conversation piece with the corresponding low value of a tampered model.

That's my opinion and a set in stone guideline for my own personal collecting.

Hi Joe, Thanks for adding that detail. For a few days I had been trying to nail down exactly when the first 25b bpw was first listed. Nick actually does show a photo (see 4th pic down) example on his 25b page and I wonder if that fuels the ever growing run of new sales we see of this model. I have quite a folio of sales and the list of makers are growing rapidly. I have the same feelings now too with the 73a bpw, and the 25a bpw both of which are being churned out in big numbers.

All the best for the festive season to you and the family.

Bert

[Tinman]

I would be well advised to actually go and look at Nick's page before I type an opinion. I had forgotten about that borrowed (with permission) photo.

I'm always open to seeing a model that will sway my opinions in another direction, but have yet to have anyone show me this model (in hand or by means of some excellent close-ups at different angles).

[yellowfoden]

Hi Joe,

The photo has not always been on Nicks page, it was one of his last edits when he closed off the codes.

My folder of 25b bpw sales has steadily grown over the years.
Interestingly I have never met anyone who has one in their collection.
The one Nick shows on his page has the 10x36 bpw but recently Vectis had one came up for auction sporting 24 tread count bpw and clear windows!!
Most definitely a model if where a premium price involved would suggest an in hand inspection warranted and someone parted with over 440gbp


The axle ends vary on the 25b and if the timeline for the bpw suggests it is at a period where axle ends could be quite ordinary thus making it difficult to verify.

Here are some stats:

Over 20 of the 25b bpw models sold on line since 2010

More than six of the sellers have questionable ethics

Two current owners have questions against their choices

Five major catalogues include the 25b with 10x36 bpw

These 20 sold items have had three different glazings which would make some early in the timeline.
Of all the ones I have counted the listing none have declared they are restorations or wheel swaps.

And there is more that wont make it to this page……

I guess the research continues with this model in the quest for genuine Lesney detail.

Bert

[Tinman]

If this is a real variation, it seems very unlikely that there would be different tread counts and different window inserts. They would almost have to be limited to one tread count and one style of window insert due to the fact that it's so rare. The fact they only show up once in a blue moon (excluding the hordes of fakes out there), they shouldn't be spread out over the time line.