Printer's Plate

[paelzermaen]

Shouldn't the picture on the plate be mirror-inverted?

[Idris]

Shouldn't the picture on the plate be mirror-inverted?

My understanding of offset litho is that the plate does not print directly onto the paper. Instead the ink is transferred first to a roller which then does the actual printing. On that basis, the image on the plate is correct.

[Idris]

My thoughts too are that this plate was not used.
Does the plate have a notch or bent corner as this could help determine the maker or printer.

This looks to be smaller in size than other box printing plates I have studied in the past which measured about 10.5 inches x 16 inches which could indicate the larger plates were from another printer. They were generally made from thin aluminium (aluminum) , is yours this material and polished on the back?
Orientation could either be landscape or portrait.

This plate shows this as being a B2 box(orB3), normally the thin cut or fold lines would be visible on these plates suggesting an early attempt of your plate.
Is there any etching of a printer number anywhere on the plate?

So, back home and time for answers!
I have also come to the conclusion that the plate has not been used. This is because the offset litho process uses rollers, meaning that, had the plate been used, it would now be curved, with the image on the outside face.
There are no notches or bent corners.
The plate measures 4 1/8" x 6". It is parallel sided, but displays evidence of having been cut with tin snips on one short side and one long side, suggesting the possibility of it having originally been part of a larger plate.
The reverse is a shiny silver colour with a faint dusting of rust(?), implying that the plate is actually tinned steel (c.f. baked bean tins).
Other than the images and the numbers, the plate does not carry any other markings.
We should not forget that there was a third printer, TP, whom we know nothing about. However, all the evidence so far is that they had Major Pack and Accessory Pack box contracts, but how about this for a theory: the TP in the logo stands for Trafford Park?

[Idris]

Looking on Pat's website, I see that a B2 box has a 2 1/4" width and a 1" depth, whilst a B3 box measures 2 5/8" x 1 ". On that basis, assuming that the model no. is centred on the endflaps, the distance from the top of one endflap number to the bottom of the other should be either 3 1/4" (B2) or 3 5/8" (B3). The plate yields a dimension of 3 1/4", indicating that this is a B2 box.
On another point entirely, it is interesting that the printworks also yielded uncut sheets of boxes. I have seen one of these, and it consisted of multiple boxes for different numbered models (incl. no. 80!) all interlocking together, like this more modern sheet. Could it be that the Trafford Park printworks began with printing individual boxes (or originally planned to print individual boxes) before realising that printing multiple boxes on the same sheet was a more cost-effective approach?

[yellowfoden]

Thanks for checking the plate and taking a few measurements Hugh.

I like the theory of Trafford Park for TP and it is interesting even though I search quite regularly I hadn’t been able to add to the TP data.(until tonight )

I still have another hard drive to check at some point as I know I have other print plate info that I had not put into any order.

Here is an image of a printing plate for the 20a ERF and this one shows the cut and fold lines. It also shows the two registrations points, in the two circles. I know I have another image of this plate because my notes say it has an A4 size layout on master plate. I will keep looking.

Over the years I have sighted and recorded over 37 box plates and all were made up of 34 plates for type A models, 1 type B and the number 80 proposed VW.
At this point it probably raises more questions than answers but by linking all the detail it may help us down the track.

Given that the number 80 plate was found with these plates I wonder if this printer was engaged to print the number 76,77,78 and 79 boxes as well and if those plates were made? Wouldn’t that be something to find those?
Now this made me think that the only reference I have found is the number 76 is listed on the base of the PS5 Army Transport set. So I had a look closely at my PS5 and I have never opened this box out fully before and BINGO… on the hidden flap is the TP logo.
I will take a photo of this tomorrow daylight ( when I am not being pampered for fathers day ) and add it as a reference. In other words could this be the printer of plates also be of TP boxes including the blue and yellow UK PS boxes.
Here I am thinking I had not seen any other TP boxes and have had one under my nose for decades but very conscious of how delicate these boxes are I was reluctant to unfold.

Also attached the number 80 plate along with comparison image, apologies it is not a very clear image.

Bert

[Idris]

As usual with your posts, there's a lot to think about there, Bert.
In the meantime, the identity of no. 76a is also known from the model's window insert, which was never updated to no. 27.

[DrJeep]

I'm finding this all fascinating, and I'd never before thought about how the boxes were printed. Hugh's big sheet of Superfast boxes shows how these were printed on and then cut from a large sheet of card. Do you think the printers did something similar with these earlier boxes, or were they printed individually? I think larger sheets would be more efficient.

[Idris]

I'm finding this all fascinating, and I'd never before thought about how the boxes were printed. Hugh's big sheet of Superfast boxes shows how these were printed on and then cut from a large sheet of card. Do you think the printers did something similar with these earlier boxes, or were they printed individually? I think larger sheets would be more efficient.

If you look carefully, you will see that my sheet is mixed SF and RW, making it (for me at least) doubly interesting.
As regards the early boxes, I have seen one of the sheets containing no. 80 boxes and can confirm that they are similar to my later sheet, i.e. interlocking groups of boxes for different models.
These small, individual printing plates are therefore a bit of a conundrum since the mixed sheets came from the same source. Do they represent plates for individual boxes, an idea which, since they appear to be unused, may never have been put into practice, or are they parts of a larger sheet which has been cut up by persons unknown? My understanding is that they were offered to the dealer as individual plates by the man who found them during clearance/demolition of the printing works, suggesting that they have always been separate sheets. (Why would the printers invest time and money in dissecting a large printing plate?)
Further thoughts on TP: Trafford Printers or perhaps Trafford Printworks.

[DrJeep]

I hadn’t noticed the mix of regular wheels and Superfast - that is really interesting!

I’d like to offer an alternative hypothesis for the separate plates. It wouldn’t make sense to make a big plate to print dozens of boxes, because every time a model was deleted and a new one introduced you’d have to start all over again. I suggest that these small plates were assembled into a larger plate (I have no idea how!), so each printer would need only one or two plates for each model’s box.

[Idris]

I’d like to offer an alternative hypothesis for the separate plates. It wouldn’t make sense to make a big plate to print dozens of boxes, because every time a model was deleted and a new one introduced you’d have to start all over again. I suggest that these small plates were assembled into a larger plate (I have no idea how!), so each printer would need only one or two plates for each model’s box.

An interesting idea but, like you, I don't see how it would work in practice (especially with 1950s technology!).