Would you bid on this?

[nearlymint]

Many thanks to everyone that commented on the thread, was hoping maybe that someone would ask why as this seller has really good feedback which is just amazing.
I can only think that those buyers just do not do any research and keep everything to themselves.
J

[DrJeep]

Many thanks to everyone that commented on the thread, was hoping maybe that someone would ask why as this seller has really good feedback which is just amazing.
I can only think that those buyers just do not do any research and keep everything to themselves.
J

That’s a really good question. I too am surprised that people are prepared to spend so much without a better understanding of what they’re buying. One recent sale from the same seller is very obviously completely out of the timeline for the model in question (late base pretending to be a first casting) but someone bought it. I’m sure you’re right that they normally keep these “treasures” to themselves. It’s certainly uncomfortable being told that something you’ve bought for good money is a fake (Red Thumb is one example).

After the Red Thumb episode, I’ve been wondering whether we could do more to help people. All the information you need to spot a fake is somewhere on the site, but it’s not always obvious. Perhaps a few pointers in Beginners Corner?

[GHOSTHUNTER]

We could openly print information required to help identify faked models but then this information would help those enterprising bussinessmen to create even more accurate faked models, something I tend to be against and this does cause concern with members as to wether we should or should not do this.

Ghosthunter.

[DrJeep]

We could openly print information required to help identify faked models but then this information would help those enterprising bussinessmen to create even more accurate faked models, something I tend to be against and this does cause concern with members as to wether we should or should not do this.

Ghosthunter.

I hope I’m not going to misquote Tinman, but I think he has this right - we should share information to help other collectors avoid being fooled and lose money (for example, Red Thumb unwittingly spent rather a lot with Eric). Actually, though, I’m thinking about general guidance - rivets, axle ends, base swaps. Good fakers already know all this so it’s just about helping their “customers” catch up with them.

[nearlymint]

Also have you spotted the closed auctions beng sold by a fake seller to another fake model seller in the US, they obviously cannot make fakes as good as he can.
But I am coming to the conclusion there is only so much we can do, if we have a few pointers then it's upto them t make the final decision.
Did anyone see the red 45 Vauxhall sold recently for very big bucks, check out the base and see what you think.
J

[DrJeep]

But I am coming to the conclusion there is only so much we can do, if we have a few pointers then it's upto them t make the final decision.

I agree - the buyer has to make the final decision. But it would be good if fewer people were being taken in.

Did anyone see the red 45 Vauxhall sold recently for very big bucks, check out the base and see what you think.
J

I just found four red Vauxhalls and I’m not sure I liked the bases of any of them... not one showed a picture of the dashboard either (though I think that someone is removing those now). The most expensive one I found has the later small triangular braces in the front wings - surely the wrong casting!

[Sebastian10]

What about a list of dubious vendors ? - some members might think this is a step too far but given that certain names are already out there (Eric , Duncan ) I think it would just be adding to the list of those whose identity is already known within the forum.

After all if a vendor complains they could be asked to provide the provenance of each model that raises concern e.g. source , any previous ownership ,receipts , independent valuation etc.

If they don't reply, or any reply is not satisfactory then each would be buyer on the forum may take this into account before they decide whether to purchase on this occasion - also a non or unsatisfactory reply would flag up this vendor as maybe one to avoid in the future.

To me one of the reasons so many people get taken in as that they take the model description on trust e.g. "model from my own collection", "these were my fathers stored in the loft". There is usually nothing provided to substantiate these statements.

Often vendors use small photos with sometimes the model being much smaller than the surrounding background - I have noticed this particularly with the 'rarer' models. Another ploy is to use slightly out of focus photos with poor lighting to help obscure the important items for authenticity checking such as axle ends and rivets.

Another fact that seems to be overlooked whilst buyers focus on feed back is that often vendors have an extensive list of only rare/desirable models for sale and their recent sale history shows a very high proportion of expensive models have been sold.
To me this is highly suspicious as in my experience most genuine collectors are always on the lookout for harder to find or rare models and are reluctant to put these up for sale in any quantity thereby limiting the numbers for vendors to acquire and then sell on.

Also if a buyer buys a model deemed to be rare that is actually a fake then often they don't have another one to hand to compare it with so they may well be taken in and leave positive feedback as they are none the wiser i.e. they have bought a fake without realising it.

In the meantime as usual Happy collecting

Sebastian

[GHOSTHUNTER]

We could openly print information required to help identify faked models but then this information would help those enterprising bussinessmen to create even more accurate faked models, something I tend to be against and this does cause concern with members as to wether we should or should not do this.

Ghosthunter.

I hope I’m not going to misquote Tinman, but I think he has this right - we should share information to help other collectors avoid being fooled and lose money (for example, Red Thumb unwittingly spent rather a lot with Eric). Actually, though, I’m thinking about general guidance - rivets, axle ends, base swaps. Good fakers already know all this so it’s just about helping their “customers” catch up with them.

I think we do share quite a lot of this information already or at least point out aspects of a model which as far as we know from experience is wrong, but as you hit upon this, it is not collected together in one place so the less informed do have a bit of searching to do to find it.

I do know Joe (''Tinman''), would like more openess here on the forum on this whole fake models issue so maybe we should open a poll thread on this very aspect...should we be more open or not?

Ghosthunter.

[DrJeep]

What about a list of dubious vendors ? - some members might think this is a step too far but given that certain names are already out there I think it would just be adding to the list of those whose identity is already known within the forum.

Lists of dubious vendors are problematical for a variety of reasons:

• proving that they’ve sold something dubious - sometimes obvious but often a matter of opinion without the model in hand
  Proving they’ve done it knowingly - they may actually be a victim too
  The risk of deliberate false accusations (which could put the site into legal difficulties)
  The ease with which sellers can change their eBay name or open new accounts anyway, meaning that any such list will be out of date immediately
  The impossibility of ever getting everyone who’s selling fakes

While the detective work can be fun, I don’t think we should try to police the internet. That’s why I suggested gathering some tips together to help people - especially newcomers - make better decisions.

[Idris]

The biggest problem with listing Ebay-based fakers/pedlars of fakes is that Ebay does not take kindly to their aliases being used by third parties in this way. (IIRC, there is something in their T&C that gives them ownership of the Ebay names.) I believe that for this very reason Joe (Tinman) ended up on the wrong end of Ebay's legal team who made life pretty uncomfortable for him.
Even if the Ebay issue could somehow be circumvented, that would still leave the law of libel. However, I believe that I am correct in saying that under UK law it is for the libelled party to disprove the allegations rather than for the libelling party to prove them. Whilst this shifts the burden of proof to the wrongdoer, the associated Court costs for a site such as VBD (which has no assets) would be terminal. bFurthermore, liability might well then devolve to either Nick or the poster in question. Not good.
The boundaries blur for well-known dubious sellers, whose names have already been painted deepest black on many, many websites (and yet they continue to achieve sales!, but I regret to say that, for the reasons already mentioned, I would have to come down hard on any public list of Fake-model sellers on Ebay. (Sorry.)