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DrJeep wrote:

yellowfoden wrote:I have just re checked my 6c that I have coded as number 1 (Johns code 7 based on Nicks code 7) and yes the ghost text is there. John makes a good point about the thickness of paint and that combined just how well this fine print was not formed in the first place.

So if the ghost text only appears on the A tipper, that does make John's even more curious. I think it has the unlisted 12.5x40 wheels (like the 6b), and not the 12.5x45 that are on the late models. But it's body type 2, with a step. I'm now thoroughly confused by the listing. My dark yellow 6c with 12.5x45 wheels has body type 1, but the listing implies that body 2 followed body 1. This is implied not only by the order of the list, but also by the tippers found on body 2.

I'm now thoroughly confused and will need to reread this whole thread whilst sitting quietly and referring to Nick's catalogue page.
In the meantime, I would just like to point out that Lesney's stock control was slighlty iffy, regularly resulting in out-of-timeline combinations of components as a consequence of bins of older castings surfacing and being used with other, newer parts. This is particularly noticeable towards the end of production when stocks for a particular model were being run down.

Idris wrote:In the meantime, I would just like to point out that Lesney's stock control was slighlty iffy, regularly resulting in out-of-timeline combinations of components as a consequence of bins of older castings surfacing and being used with other, newer parts. This is particularly noticeable towards the end of production when stocks for a particular model were being run down.

Yes, that probably explains mine, which has to be very near the end of production because I've had it from new. I think the problem with the list is that it doesn't distinguish between 12.5x40 and 12.5x45 wheels, though I need to photograph mine and count the treads carefully to be sure.

Idris wrote:I would just like to point out that Lesney's stock control was slighlty iffy, regularly resulting in out-of-timeline combinations of components as a consequence of bins of older castings surfacing and being used with other, newer parts. This is particularly noticeable towards the end of production when stocks for a particular model were being run down.

With models of this status (out of order components), it can be difficult putting the model in the correct place in it's 'Time-Line'. Sometimes it has to be the wheels chosen as the difining factor as they may match wheels in use with other models in the range, so despite what a baseplate (underside detail etc), may be telling us, the wheels could be the one item to place the model correctly.

What I am saying here is that the smaller components are likely to be the better 'Time-Line' dating items rather than the main castings like bodies.

Ghosthunter.

Those treads really are hard to count, especially when they're play worn. Anyway, my two are:

yellow, silver trim, body 1 (no step), tipper 2 (missing E, gap), 12.5x40 front wheels, no wheel nuts, inner not smooth, 12.5x45 twin rear wheels from M9 - I assume this is code 14, though this is listed as 12.5x45 front wheels.

orange-yellow, no trim, body 1 (no step), tipper 3 (B with full text), 12.5x45 wheels all round. This is listed as code 19. This is the one I've had since I was very young, so it has to be late in production (I wasn't even born when the 6c came out!).

John's seems to have 12.5x40 wheels all round, with body 2 and no trim. Even without the strange tipper, it doesn't really fit into the listing.

DrJeep wrote:...... I think it has the unlisted 12.5x40 wheels (like the 6b), and not the 12.5x45 that are on the late models........ I'm now thoroughly confused by the listing.......

Hi Glenn

The 12.5 x 40 is not so much as unlisted, more like a transposition error.

The 12.5 x 45 bpw is incorrect for codes 13 onward in Nicks pages and a carryover mistake from when Nicks pages were set up.
The Stannard catalogue got this right with 12.5 x 40 (his code 10 onward) and this has been reported on the forum in the past but has never been corrected in Nicks listing.

Perhaps there would be less confusion if that wheel tread count is corrected and we can iron out some other errors for 6c later.

Tip for tread count method. I use an eye loupe or slip on magnifier glasses and using the sprue mark as reference gently turn the wheel with a tiny sharp tooth pick over each tread. It is simple and quick especially on mint wheels. I also use the camera method but that only works for sharp in focus images which doesn't always happen.

Bert

Hi Bert

I think you’re right - both my 6cs have 12.5x40 wheels (front of the earlier model, all wheels on the later one, though it’s very play worn and really hard to count, even from an in-focus photograph!) I assumed that 12.5x45 must exist on later models, but I guess it doesn’t. That does make John’s a little less confusing.

It would be good to tidy up the listing, but it looks like you’ve already got a good idea of what it should look like. It’s a nice model!

Glenn

I can verify your new body type John, I bought one of these from a collector friend of mine in January of 2014, and he has sold at least one other just like ours since then. My other details are the same as yours, so we both are lucky to have very minty models of this overlooked new unlisted Stannard/ Nick Code. How to add a missing Body to Nick's listings as a suffix is the next question...
As to fixing this whole 6C Coding? We had discussed the fact that the front coned wheels with lug nuts AND treads were the first to be released on this model, and also the fact that these earliest Dumpers with lugs first had white hydrosleeves on them when released (that Stannard had completely missed). The wheels WITH front lug nuts are the only models I have found in the U.S. with white hydrosleeves as we had discussed years ago, so Nick's "Locked" Guide is only a bit more accurate than Mike Stannard's was when published in 1985. Nick's now accurately lists the white hydrosleeves on the lugged front wheels, but inaccurately on his earliest codes with white Hydrosleeves appearing also on the smooth coned treadless front wheels which are out of proper timeline. Those added white hydrosleeve codes with smooth wheels were not ever verified or discussed that I can recall before adding them to Nick's Guide 5 years ago. Any retractions of them seem nearly impossible today, as does correcting the lug count on those fine front wheels and also correcting the timeline on the earliest type of front wheels used on these Dumpers. We could have easily made all these changes years ago, but now? Kwakers

Hi John! In reading through my 6C added "Unlisted" codes I now see I also have your new type of Tipper mounted on a later 3rd type of body/Chassis. This other model of mine has the thicker right hand step and all the other details of that last casting, possibly showing a later release of our unlisted (undamaged EN) type of Tipper Body. I only found this NMint one at a local Toy Show in March of 2016, so these oddballs can still be found when we take the time to check details closely. Cheers! Kwakers

Yes, I can confirm that the wheels do have 40 treads on my model pictured above. I'm still quite new to matchbox and collecting, and I don't know if there is a system for allocating codes to variations to indicate an approximate assembly timeline? I thought that codes were simply added in the order that they were discovered. I suppose we have to have a system that doesn't change all the existing codes when a new variation is found.

The dectective work is good fun, though I only picked out this model because I spotted the real Euclid on a youtube clip from the 'Secret life of the Motorway' as it was about to be put to work on the first day of Motorway construction in Britain. (No silver grille though!)

Cheers

John

yellowfoden wrote: Like the idea of a pre-pro of this model, I can just picture Zbret up-ended in that bottom of the barrel searching now.
Bert

Always Bert always !


zBret