17a Removals Van

[kerbside]

Hello Christian yes the #17 is cast on all four wheels two on the out side and two on the inside wheels.

Also all the wheels are the same size 8.5 mm just an optical illusion Christian,

As it is on the 17b model the 8.5 metal wheels on the first model but this has the #17 cast in the cab roof, and a "B" type decal on it.

Which is unlisted in Mike Stannards book.

A proper mixture to have.

George T.

[Tinman]

I've 8.5 metal wheels with 11 & 13 cast in them too.

[ChFalkensteiner]

I've 8.5 metal wheels with 11 & 13 cast in them too.

Those would be the usual wheels on 11b and 13b, respectively.

The wheels of 11a are smaller (7mm) and to my knowledge do not come with numbers.

13a and 13b have wheels of the same diameter, just usually there are no numbers on the wheels of most variations of 13a while the number 13 is cast on the wheels of some variations of 13b, and there are more differences. Two years ago Antonin posted details about these two models and their wheels here.

Later in that same thread I showed my 13a with numbered wheels, confirming the existence of that one.

[Tinman]

In the old thread, you can see that a Bedford wrecker with 4 number 39 wheels is mentioned. I find that interesting because the number 39 is the model I've most often found with numbered wheels from other models placed on the 39. These such finds are much of my consideration for wheel sharing of metal wheels. Being that the metal wheeled 39 is a favorite of mine to restore, I've come across enough with the other model's number to conclude it's not an accident. The 11b is another model that I've found with a different model's number on the wheels.

My apologies to Hugh for taking the thread off topic.

Edit: Some of these numbers can be very hard to see with the naked eye (13 being a good example). This is probably due to die wear. Regardless, I suspect many numbered wheels are overlooked by their owners as they can be so difficult to spot.

[Idris]

My apologies to Hugh for taking the thread off topic.

Not to worry. I did toy with splitting it off right at the very beginning, but it;s a natural extension of the 17a/b catalogue reviews. However, given how it's grown (and is likely to continue to grow) , it might well be worth giving it it's own thread in the RW section.

Edit: Some of these numbers can be very hard to see with the naked eye (13 being a good example). This is probably due to die wear. Regardless, I suspect many numbered wheels are overlooked by their owners as they can be so difficult to spot.

At the risk of stating the obvious, they can also be overlooked simply because the wheel has been fitted with the number facing inwards.

[kwakers]

I would say that this thread is proper with the topic of the numbered and unnumbered metal wheels as used on the 17A and 17B Vans being discussed by several members with George's measurement even taking place on one. It may be looking that the smaller diameter 8.5 wheels as Tinman pointed out MAY also have numbers (?), and that the "Larger" metal wheels with numbers can also vary as Antonin has measured from 8.7 to 8.9 mm in outside diameter. How could we split away such an interesting thread on the 17A & B crossover numbered/unnumbered Metal Wheel diameters?
The big question now is whether we use one wheel size for the numbered #17 MW, being that our examples have only varied in diameter from 8.5 to 8.9 as far as we have found, (so far) and they may not even measure the same on all four of any one model we inspect. Should shrinkage issues or die wear be factored into our cataloging all of the wheels of these 17A & 17B Vans....kwakers

[Tinman]

It may be looking that the smaller diameter 8.5 wheels as Tinman pointed out MAY also have numbers (?)

Without a doubt, 8.5 wheels were made with a number17 cast. I've even got small wheel (with 17 cast) that's off of a model and it measures right at 8.5 mm.

[ChFalkensteiner]

At the risk of stating the obvious, they can also be overlooked simply because the wheel has been fitted with the number facing inwards.

I believe all of those numbered wheels were intended to be fitted with the numbers facing inwards, for a more realistic appearance of the models when viewed from outside (which they normally were). Just as most of those wheels are virtually symmetric, they were often fitted the wrong way.

This conclusion comes from the fact that those few numbered wheels which are not symmetric (e.g. the rear wheels of 24a and those of 4b) always have the numbers cast on the inside.

Besides, the fact that quite a few models are found with numbered wheels from other models does not indicate that this was ever intended to happen - certainly not mixes of wheels with different numbers on one model. To me it is the same thing as mixes of silver and grey plastic wheels or mixes of plastic wheels with 20 and 24 treads etc. It could happen relatively often if several models had wheels of similar sizes and shapes, but it was not planned. All interesting, noteworthy and collectable, but not intended variations.

[kwakers]

"But Not Intended Variations" That statement sent chills through me Christian. Up until the introduction of the Superfast line in 1969 and 1970, intended differences were not even a thought or consideration at Lesney in their regular wheel lineup. Models like the Hatra Shovel may have changed colours or even some models may have had colour shade differences in mid production, but interior and plastic colour changes like the red versus off white interior changes on the #20 Taxi and the #38 Vauxhall Wagon were rarely done in the RW line.
Your "Intended Variations" brings back the ghosts of the 2nd generation Superfasts, but not necessarily the transition models. Intended variations became the norm in that SF line after the sedate transition models were discontinued and the "Wild Models" became the norm.
Sorry about the interruption in this 17A Van thread and my seeming to poke at some desirable intentional factory motivated Superfast 'Rares' from the early 70s and beyond.... The urge to comment was just too strong as interior, base, window, wheel, and bright exterior colour changes flashed back.
Thank You for the information on the metal wheel numbers meant to be placed inside Christian, I had never thought about the #24 Shovel wheels until your interesting Post here. kwakers

[Tinman]

To me it is the same thing as mixes of silver and grey plastic wheels or mixes of plastic wheels with 20 and 24 treads etc. It could happen relatively often if several models had wheels of similar sizes and shapes, but it was not planned. All interesting, noteworthy and collectable, but not intended variations.

I agree and I think we are talking about the same thing, i.e. metal wheels were shared on an as needed basis and not to create specific variations. I too have no doubt the wheels were intended to be installed with the numbers placed on the inside.