9a Dennis Fire Engine

[Idris]

An interesting and intriguing model, Antonin.
I always keep an eye out for that elusive 16-spoke 9a (so far without any luck) and have noted several models on Ebay over the course of the last year with non-standard escape wheels (usually very small diameter), but all either obvious home-brews (of the "Dad to the rescue" type) or with a riveted escape axle end - certainly nothing like this.
The obvious course of action here is to identify the source of these anomalous escape wheels and let me start the New Year by tossing in a googly. I have long suspected that, in the early days, there was considerable behind-the-scenes cooperation between Lesney and other manufacturers, most especially Benbros: we have Benbros with extremely variable tooling quality (did Jack Odell cut the better ones for them?), very similar looking models (e.g. the Benbros Bedford Milk Float) and the Karrier Coca-Cola truck) and know, for instance, that the coaches for the large coronation coach were outsourced by Lesney to Benbros. At first glance, I think there is a chance that these unusual escape wheels could be from the Charbens "Old Crock" range - worth thinking about if we cannot find a credible Lesney source.

[nearlymint]

Thanks Antonin for the picture, just not sure about those wheels. They do not look like lesney wheels, but maybe they were an early test wheel for the model.
These wheels look quite strong and would have lasted a lot longer than the usual ones. Is the model itself standard with no other differences.
Jason

[Diecast]

Hi Hugh, Jason
The model is almost identical to the standard model 9a. There is only one small casting difference, the standard "sharp" protrusion of the ladder (on the ladder wheels end) is "flat". I agree with you Jason and I think also that they are the test ladder wheels which were probably originally designed too small (ø11mm) and there were problems in production ( almost all spaces between spokes have the rest of material from the mould or the rest of the painting). Probably the model is an "experimental" PrePro or a very very short first run of production.
Antonin

[Idris]

The model is almost identical to the standard model 9a. There is only one small casting difference, the standard "sharp" protrusion of the ladder (on the ladder wheels end) is "flat".

That neatly explains why the strengthening webs do not extend the full height of the lugs.

[Idris]

A few more thoughts:

• - It's interesting that the model is fully trimmed. Would we expect this on a pre-production?
  - Those lugs on the back of the escape ladder are prone to bending and snapping. Could the suggested casting difference in fact be the result of excessive tumbling?
  - Is it credible that Lesney would manufacture the tooling for such small escape wheels and then not use it even for a limited period? To do so would not only have incurred costs but would also have delayed the launch of the model.

[Diecast]

The model is almost identical to the standard model 9a. There is only one small casting difference, the standard "sharp" protrusion of the ladder (on the ladder wheels end) is "flat".

That neatly explains why the strengthening webs do not extend the full height of the lugs.

Hugh, your explanations with the strengthening webs seems to me logical and plausible.
Antonin

[Diecast]

A few more thoughts:

• - It's interesting that the model is fully trimmed. Would we expect this on a pre-production?

I have some PrePro with full trim, some with superdatailed trim and some without any trim. There seems to be no rule.
Antonin

[nearlymint]

To snap those lugs on tumbling I feel would be very difficult, I have seen these broken but only on models that are well used(level with the end of the brace).
The wheel for me does not seem right, how does the crimping compare to another model Antonin. Do you feel it looks origional.
Jason

[Idris]

Here are the dimensions:
- Ø11mm (circa plus, minus 0.2 mm)
- 10 spokes
- rounded rims
- 4.5 mm hubs

Can any member provide comparative dimensions for the Charbens "Old Crocks" 10-spoke wheel as used on the e.g. 1905 Napier, and information on whether the wheels were smooth or with tread?

[Diecast]

Crimping seems to be OK Jason, but I can not turn the axle. It may be the old bluff with cutted and then glued axles. If there is so much doubt, I'll have to explore the model in more detail,... you never know
Antonin