SF #8 Mustang Rare???

[SMS88]

We have no idea if that Mustang was owned by Bob Brennan for weeks or decades -he may well have bought it in at anytime from collections offered to him and know next to nothing of its provenance -if he knew it had come from Lesney R & D surely he would have said so rather than keep the fact secret!

[SMS88]

Note the casting damage on the hood edge close to the ´R´ . This is and the damage to the roof edge above one door make me suspect this is a respray or re-touched item not original. Big photo of rivit excellent, still looks to me like base has been off. Does anyone here own any RW or SF Mustang with similar playwear casting damage to the hood edge under factory paint?? Corners/edge above each headlamp have also been touched in with brush paint.

[Idris]

I see what you mean, Mike. That is a nasty gouge to the front edge of the bonnet.

[kwakers]

Did anyone see the Non Mint condition 7 description in this original #8s listing? Is grade 7 too high for this one as to make that inaccurate? Perhaps you are presenting good proof that this model's hood has been touched in here, so that makes it of no interest or use to a Mint only collector no matter how rare or odd the variation would be. If it is actually a factory color trial or pre-production, that also kills the general interest in it as a toy meant for retail sale in our stores.
Of course this white Superfast Mustang could have been from the new Superfast Giftset G-1 that is pictured in the 1970 French language Pocket Catalog on page 48 that I now have on my lap. Unfortunately, the picture is way too small to see what color interior that White Superfast Mustang had in it, but the wheels are early large Superfast on it.
Of course this white Mustang could also have been a late 1970 Superfast trial model Bob picked off the shelves of the pre-pro room of the factory while picking up his 4400+ odd colored early Superfast Tankers for our NAMC Club models Mick. That Mustang would surely have been in Germany now with a price tag of 5000 on it had it been offered during one of the visits to Massachusetts. I really don't think the condition is ugly enough to have been thrown on the floor too many times during stress testing the new Superfast axles there, but maybe it was touched up for that catalog picture......I must now have a Redds Apple Ale with all this new speculation. kwakers

[motorman]

Motorman, you have done just what Bob says in ALL his listings: "not sure, do not order, always the safest bet" If the Mustang sold was not for you, so be it.
I have known Bob on a collecting level since 1969, 45 years now. Bob is 80+ years old, and has forgotten more about Lesneys than I have known in all my 50 years of collecting. He currently has 300+ models listed each and every week, cries over nothing, and celebrates nothing as he sells off thousands of his long held toys. He simply has lived and collected Genuine Toys all his life. My opinion is that this Toy is as genuine as Bob, and with the collectors like you and I that he is selling to, there is no need for him to chuff up his listings as you may be suggesting. You have heard everyone here stating that a used rare is bought at 10-15% of it's Mint value, so no surprise here at all, just a normal market price for that rare of a Superfast in lightly playworn condition.
On that note, the white paint on this model has several scars that have not been 'touched up', so I cannot say it is half as 'played with' as you seem to grade it as Motorman. I wish some of my rares could still be found this nice today. Playing on rugs and raceways did not damage these Superfast wheels, but collisions and throwing the toys all in a box at the end of each play day tend to cause body damage far worse than this model exhibits.
Motorman, Bob Brennen has brought us unheard of variations like the #20 RW Taxi without front tow guide, the 33 Lambo variations WITH Tow guides, full white and also some odd color interiors in early regular wheels, and many more unheard of variations like them he has now sold off. He not only found and collected them with some being almost unique, but has lots of spares left that will continue to surprise the 'Best' of us. kwakers

Thanks again for your thoughts Dick, I appreciate your comments and your obvious allegiance to Mr Brennan.

Lets not be mistaken here, this is an variation of the SF Mustang that has NEVER been seen before. It has a dubious paint finish, the wrong type of wheel width, inconsistant paintwork wear to base wear and totaly mint wheels. I very much doubt given the damage to the bodywork that this model spent it's whole life on a nice shag pile or being raced on a superfast track set.

I also dont buy into Bob forgetting more about Lesneys than you have known in 50 years of collecting. If this variation has been in Bob's possession since 1970 or thereabouts then he would have know the significance of this variation to the SF collecting community for several decades.

Dick, If this model was genuine it would not just be a rare variation of the SF#8. This would be the ultimate Mustang for collector and therefore to suggest a used rare is bought at 10 - 15% of it's mint value is very very wrong if this was indeed such an ultra rare Mustang.

There is absolutely no evidence that this is an original factory model, Prepro or otherwise.

In any other circumstance you would i am sure hold judgement until more concrete evidence was presented or perhaps another 1 or 2 examples of this unheard of wide wheel variant were discovered and confirmed as genuine.

In short just because Bob Brennan is involved in this sale does not make this a genuine article.

[SMS88]

Of course this white Mustang could also have been a late 1970 Superfast trial model Bob picked off the shelves of the pre-pro room of the factory while picking up his 4400+ odd colored early Superfast Tankers for our NAMC Club models Mick. That Mustang would surely have been in Germany now with a price tag of 5000 on it had it been offered during one of the visits to Massachusetts. I really don't think the condition is ugly enough to have been thrown on the floor too many times during stress testing the new Superfast axles there, but maybe it was touched up for that catalog picture......I must now have a Redds Apple Ale with all this new speculation. kwakers

Very good point Dick, the fact that Harvey had first dibs on this Mustang and didnt grab it speaks volumes to me too especially with Bob´s complete silence on it´s provenance with just his advice to decide based on photos. I see too much wrong with this to be a genuine factory original,it looks like a custom to me!

[kwakers]

If the experts here can make such charges on a model without having it in hand, there is truly Matchbox magic being done here on our Forum. First the base rivet was bad, then a lot of 8s were loose anyway, then it looks good. BUT, the base has been off. Next the paint on this nonmint model has been touched in because of casting damage under it. But No, it now has been totally repainted at some point in it's life, perhaps even just months ago.
Bob has owned all of his listed models over 30 years by his own admission, and from my experience has never painted or faked anything in his life. I think I also had this discussion with Mick several months ago about Bob's honest character. If my allegiance to such friends and Pioneer collectors as Bob Brennen, Harold Colpitts, Ray Sitch, Phillip Bowdidge, Nigel Cooper, Pat Lamagna, Bill McCulloch, Don LaSpaluto, Don Srenowski, Charlie Mack, Nick Jones and many others (here and not here on our Forum) is very obvious Motorman, I have been in great company with them, and always will defend anyone who has been honest in our hobby.
O.K., I give up on you Superfast Guys and I am crying Uncle. I will never comment on any models with those funny wheels on them. They were shipped out of the factory in initial shipments that we bought and were trading all over the country as they hit our U.S. stores, but everything is now known about every variation of them we found in 1969, and about those we still have packed away in our private collections. kwakers

[vetrad]

I bought this yellow SF 33 with ivory interior from Bob a while back. The auction did not include a base picture and I bought it based on his reputation and because he said he recently had it verified by a respected German collector-friend. Another member here asked for a base picture from Bob and he forwarded this photograph to me. Not the best photo. But, I decided I was not comfortable with the rivets based on this picture and asked for a refund (I never had the model in hand). Bob refunded my money without question. I have bought other very nice models from Bob and been very happy with them. I think motorman has a valid point to question a model and not blindly accept it based on provenance alone. Bob sells a lot of nice pieces and I wish he would post better pictures.

As a side question, I would have expected this variation of the 33 to have a tow guide. Anyone know for sure?

[SMS88]

I bought this yellow SF 33 with ivory interior from Bob a while back. The auction did not include a base picture and I bought it based on his reputation and because he said he recently had it verified by a respected German collector-friend. Another member here asked for a base picture from Bob and he forwarded this photograph to me. Not the best photo. But, I decided I was not comfortable with the rivets based on this picture and asked for a refund (I never had the model in hand). Bob refunded my money without question. I have bought other very nice models from Bob and been very happy with them. I think motorman has a valid point to question a model and not blindly accept it based on provenance alone. Bob sells a lot of nice pieces and I wish he would post better pictures.

As a side question, I would have expected this variation of the 33 to have a tow guide. Anyone know for sure?

Good photos of Muira base - the question would be what are the black rings around the edges of the rivits? Are they dirt, glue or the shadows of enlarged rivit holes in the baseplate? Car doesnt look dirty at all although the electro plating is oxidising as normal on these models so while dirt is possible it seems less likely than the other 2 options. After Harvey´s 23c window reassignment and years of whispers about Mack´s endorsement of a few dodgy models most of us here now rely on larger than life size photos to decide whether or not a specific model looks factory original or tampered with.Use of tow guide baseplates on early SF Muiras seems to be rather mixed as if the short runs assembled for christmas 1969 including tracksets used a run of baseplate casting which included both standard baseplates and a minority with tow guides. The fact that a few common gold with white seats Muiras exist WITH tow guide baseplates shows that this limited production of tow guide SF baseplates was used up over multiple small runs that the wonderful 40 years book tells us was a feature of the Superfast transition in 1969 in the final assembley factory

[SMS88]

How many reasons can kwakers see for a skilled ebay buyer to reject these 2 as base off fakes? The rivits look much more factory than Bob´s example imho