58c DAF Girder Truck

[GHOSTHUNTER]

The detail in Bert's last picture above needs to be looked at by other members. What Bert is seeing may just be tool misalighnment/tool ware. If tool ware it would more likely be on the later versions of the model so as soon as a 'Time-Line' can be done for this model it should be possible to place model 'A' and 'B' (Bert's model identification letters), in order.

Ghosthunter.

[nearlymint]

a) cream
b) off white

I have three distinct shades - cream, off-white and bright white (the left example in my first picture)

I have noted the roof rivet pressed and unpressed, I do have a model without the rivet or pin listed in my notes.
J

Thanks, Jason. I think the one without the roof rivet is, as Kwakers suggested, between the riveted and pinned versions. If I’m right yours should have the curved cab wall (like mine) and could have a tow guide.

Glenn

Hi Glenn
Luckily this one was close to hand and the rivet is not completely missing but very thin, so I am not sure if it's just a poor casting of the rivet. The model does have a curved cab but no tow hook.
J

[DrJeep]

the rivet is not completely missing but very thin

Thanks, Jason. I wonder if mine might be the same, as it too has the curved cab, but it's hard to tell without taking it apart as the glazing is so scratched. This does lead to the possibility that there are two variations without rivet - the one you have and I probably have, somewhere between the full rivet and the new stud, and a very early version before the rivet was cast.

The detail in Bert's last picture above needs to be looked at by other members. What Bert is seeing may just be tool misalighnment/tool ware. If tool ware it would more likely be on the later versions of the model so as soon as a 'Time-Line' can be done for this model it should be possible to place model 'A' and 'B' (Bert's model identification letters), in order

I can see why you might think this. However, I'm sure this is a deliberate casting difference. My early DAF with the straight cab has the same very small, poorly cast supports. Later DAFs have thicker, better formed supports. Both of these are also mould 1, showing it was modified early in production.

straight cab wall, minimal supports

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curved cab wall, well-formed supports

IMG_5611.jpg (231.45 KiB) Viewed 7875 times

I expect all these larger braces to coincide with models having tow guides.

Sorry, Bert - I have one without a tow guide but with larger wheel support braces. It's the one like Jason's, with either a small or no rivet. The braces were changed after the cab wall was changed, but before the tow guide was added.

Does anyone have the model with straight cab with mould 2 please?

That's a good question. Anyone?

Glenn

[yellowfoden]

[quote="DrJeep

I expect all these larger braces to coincide with models having tow guides.

Sorry, Bert - I have one without a tow guide but with larger wheel support braces. It's the one like Jason's, with either a small or no rivet. The braces were changed after the cab wall was changed, but before the tow guide was added.Glenn[/quote]

Hi Glenn, Thanks for responding to Kevins post, for some reason I was unable to log back in to explain that the straight cab is the early code.

Now given that I have …

curved cab, with small axle braces and NO tow guide
and
curved cab, with small axle braces with a tow guide
and
curved cab, with large axle braces with tow guide

it got me thinking if yours and Jason’s are:

curved cab, with large braces, with tow guide

then perhaps it is not a rivet in the roof that you suggest is smaller, but is the remains of a stud due to the die being clogged up.
At the point in production they would not have worried about this problem because the rivet or stud didn’t really serve any purpose because glazing was held in by top of the grille/base plate.

It is worth noting here that anybody looking at this model and using Nick’s guide and comparing it to say Stannards (or Christian’s) guides will be quite confused because they are reversed in order when it comes to roof rivets.

I have been trying to recall if I have seen anywhere discussed or mentioned that the base plate differs in the very first casting where glazing is held in by a rivet that is spun/flattened/burred over.
Stannard shows this rivet as a drawing and Nick mentions it in description however there is no reference to the shape of the base plate.

But the key to all this is that the first casting has a base plate that does not come into contact with the glazing. That is why it is held by a rivet that has been tool finished.

Then they changed the shape of the base plate with two support posts to provide support to the glazing and the rivet and stud became then became a location or direction part.
That is why on the 47c DAF tipper we see no rivet, no stud just a hole in the glazing for the complete life of the model.
Also worth noting that 58c came out 2-3 months ahead of the 47c in 1968 and all of the glazing in both models are cast with 47/58 on them.

If I look at the inside of the cab with eye loupe I can see a flaw in the side of the stud and would not surprise me that some exist that are broken.

Given the stud did not serve a purpose I see it quite feasible that a blob of weld into the hole in the die could have been an easy solution to get rid of the stud.

I do not think there is an EARLY casting with a NO rivet flat roof in the regular wheel 58c.

Bert
ps apologies about the quality of photo, my camera wants to autofocus on the windows instead of the inside base plate

[nearlymint]

Hi Bert,
Some great info you have shown, I think they probably changed it to a tapered stud to locate the window a bit easier when in assembly. Maybe the glazing was getting stuck on the unused rivet when in assembly.
J

[DrJeep]

it got me thinking if yours and Jason’s are: curved cab, with large braces, with tow guide then perhaps it is not a rivet in the roof that you suggest is smaller, but is the remains of a stud due to the die being clogged up.
At the point in production they would not have worried about this problem because the rivet or stud didn’t really serve any purpose because glazing was held in by top of the grille/base plate.

Mine is curved cab, large braces, no tow guide. And with some difficulty I've managed to photograph the rivet - which seems to be a well formed but very shallow rivet. It looks deliberate to me, perhaps just to locate the glazing during assembly.

very shallow rivet

IMG_5629.jpg (311.19 KiB) Viewed 7826 times

I think the sequence is:
- chiselled rivet
- unchiselled long rivet
- very short rivet
- stud

Hugh mentions NAMC 58-1b as an early code without a rivet. It's possible that this is actually the one I've shown above - this rivet is very hard to photograph, so it would be easy to think that it's not there. And without a rivet, you'd need the later base - and as you say:

But the key to all this is that the first casting has a base plate that does not come into contact with the glazing. That is why it is held by a rivet that has been tool finished.

Another brilliant find! With this base and no rivet, the glass wouldn't be held in place. So if NAMC 58-1b exists, it's not early in the sequence.

My straight walled 58c has the later base. Yours must be very early - are there any other casting differences?

[DrJeep]

and while we're thinking about bases, Thomas / paelzermaen has three with the stud and no tow guide, including the one pictured here. Bases with and without tow guide were in use at the same time.

I don't think anyone's yet shown the narrow tow guide version, but surely it must exist.

[yellowfoden]

My straight walled 58c has the later base. Yours must be very early - are there any other casting differences?

Thanks Glenn and Jason for comments.
Thanks Glenn for going to the trouble of taking the photo of the shorter rivet, that is the first I have seen on this model, great photo.

Apart from the head board behind the cab being smooth I can’t see any casting differences.
Being early, the front of the roof Antonin has shown is crisp and so too is the number plate surround and on the bumper.
As the model progresses the definition starts to disappear.

The base plate by the way only has a number 4 with 58 and 47 whereas later base plates have the 4904/102 mentioned elsewhere. These do not appear to have 58 and 47 on them.

I had another go at photos of the inside of the early casting given there is not a photo that I can see on the forum or Nick’s pages of the flattened/pressed rivet.

Another reason they may have wanted to get rid of the rivet was to reduce the number of cracked glazing’s when too much pressure applied to rivet.

The 5th photo (photo g) is of one of the studs which shows an outer ring which could be the remains of a rivet when die modified.

The other image is to show the un-pressed rivet. I had to take two images to get complete rivet. The length of the rivet is 2.00mm and the stud is another 1mm longer again.

Bert

[DrJeep]

Does anyone have the model with straight cab with mould 2 please?

I do now! These are both very play worn, but here are mould 1 and mould 2 with the straight cab wall.

moulds 1 and 2

IMG_5676.jpg (319.3 KiB) Viewed 7733 times

There are some minor differences between the two moulds. The left side pillars are slightly narrower on mould 1, by just over 0.1 mm.

moulds 1 and 2

IMG_5678.jpg (336.23 KiB) Viewed 7733 times

The number plate on mould 1 is slightly deeper than on mould 2, so there is a slight step on the bottom of the cab.

And that's about it. Both of these have the second type of base with supports for the glazing, so I'm still looking for the very early one (prepro?) that Bert showed earlier.

It seems like this early straight cab might be quite scarce - or is it just a previously unnoticed variation that everyone will find when they look? We know now that both moulds were in use from the start of production.

[Squid]

I don't think anyone's yet shown the narrow tow guide version, but surely it must exist.

I gave my example a looking over. I can say for sure that it has a tow guide (though I'm not sure if it's the elusive narrow one), a window locating stud, a curve to the back of the roof, and side posts with channels. The axle braces seem to be large, and I believe it is off-white. Should anyone want to see pictures, I'd be happy to take some.