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Rooster wrote:Sounds like there is no for sure way to tell. I have the seller mailing to me with a down pmt for review. I'll get some pics on site next week when I rec. Then we all can discuss. If nothing else should generate some good discussions. Then as a team, I may or may not make an offer. For "ME" it has value to have in my collection a factory fake unauthorized by Lesney going out the back door. That's a pretty cool story. I had never heard before. Thanks again everyone for your input and interest .
B

If you have read all through our Joe Stone thread you may reach the same conclusion that I reached - that these are as equally genuine factory specials as the red/white or metallic purple and silver NAMC SF32 tankers because they were distributed by the same 2 people - Joe Stone and Bob Brennan.

Rooster wrote:...a factory fake unauthorized by Lesney...

There is no evidence for that either, apart from a half-remembered letter signed by a person whose name no one could recall, and a copy of which could not be found!

SMS88 wrote:If you have read all through our Joe Stone thread you may reach the same conclusion that I reached - that these are as equally genuine factory specials as the red/white or metallic purple and silver NAMC SF32 tankers because they were distributed by the same 2 people - Joe Stone and Bob Brennan.

If you were to read through thy whole Joe Stone thread (which is on the old Lefora forum), you would undoubtedly come to the same conclusion as the overwhelming majority of forum members, namely that these were fakes, are fakes, and always will be fakes.
That aside, it doesn't matter how often the meagre evidence (as opposed to unsupported hearsay and conjecture) is picked over, they will never, ever be code 1 models.

SMS88 wrote:Supported by tinman´s expert opinion when he examined one closely - impossible to tell apart from known genuine Lesney crimps!

We discussed this on the old forum and it was suggested that it was quite possible that the unpainted castings could easily have been smuggled out of the factory, with the completed models being smuggled back in for wheeling.

Harold Colpitts boldly spoke up about the 'New' crimped axle variation being simply what you are saying Idris, an out and out Fake Lesney in one of his very early Club Publications. In the EARLY 1970s we were in fact among the earliest charter members of his AIM Club and my memory is quite lucid on these Wreckers and the immediate turmoil they created within our collector community. After some investigation on Harold's part with his own Lesney management connections in England, Harold then published a very well known retraction and apology, explaining what he was able to learn as facts on these latter reverse color Wreckers. This is not hearsay, conjecture, or speculation as Mick is accused of spreading, it is historical documented printed facts from our most respected veteran U.S. Lesney collector and distributor, Harold Colpitts. To continue to publish that it has been 'suggested that the unpainted castings could easily be smuggled out of the factory, with the completed models being smuggled back in for wheeling' is to ignore known U.S. published Matchbox history directly spoken to me by my friend Harold Colpitts, the 'Sheriff' who would out ANYONE at anytime he caught trying to pass off or 'screw' anyone in HIS hobby. No stories here, just find copies of his early Club publications for his warnings and outing of 'Fakers' he investigated that would not 'make good' and cease. (Has legal litigation changed since those 'early' days 40+ years ago.!)
As for some additional printed known facts for Rooster to read:
In Harold Colpitt's 2nd printing 1983 Matchbox 1-75 Series 'American International Matchbox' variation catalog, which is still available from Schatvet Seller on E Bay, I quote: In 1970, green cab yellow body models were hand produced in the Lesney factory which contained red plastic hook, BP labels, black plastic wheels with crimped axles! These were sold to collectors as 'authentic' Lesney produced for $15.00 each.
These are the facts of at least that limited number of 'Authentic' second generation of reverse Wreckers passed around and sold to New York City area collector friends that were not ever sanctioned by Harold in any way. The number of 'Fakes' done after 1970 is probably in the hundreds, so be careful Rooster.
PM me with any questions and some facts for help in discovering the provenance of the one being offered to you Rooster. kwakers

What is your thoughts on this auction from vectis ? I found this with a search on Google , you can go to old auction page by searching 1st 2 lines on Google.
Great stuff !!!
Barry


LOT::270
Matchbox Regular Wheels No.13D Dodge Wreck Truck "BP"

Larger Image
Matchbox Regular Wheels No.13d Dodge Wreck Truck "BP" - reverse colour issue with green cab and jib, yellow back, red plastic hook, amber windows, black plastic wheels with crimped axles - Mint in Near Mint type E2 reverse issue colour picture box - nice example of 2nd issue.
Price realised: £4400


Sold at Vectis
Dr Scott D. Gillogly

My impressions, from early on, of these so called "Factory Fakes" was always that they were done without approval of higher ups and were never sanctioned by Lesney. From what I've learned over the years, these models were created on the down low and left out the back door (so to speak).

Here is what I can confirm as fact: The paint on one such model has been tested and it was painted by Lesney. In hand inspection of that model provided me with the conclusion (in my opinion) that it was assembled using the equipment at Lesney.

My only comments about the models is that the facts point to the conclusion it was painted at the factory. The base rivet looks to be factory work. As for the crimp axle ends, they are good enough to pass as Lesney crimps.

Beyond that, I still consider the model a Code 3 because it was altered without the permission of Lesney and because it was not produced in a genuine manner by Lesney. IMHO, it should be considered a "back door special" or a "lunch box" creation" or any of the other clandestine names associated with items made and taken out of the plant without approval.

Comparing it to the club tankers is bull shit. First of all, the quantity of wreckers is far lower than the tankers. The main thing that nixes the wrecker is the crimped axles, the tankers do not have crimp axles. If the wrecker was approved, why were they not completed just like the tankers? Why bother to take them elsewhere and crimp the axles?

Also, there is confirmation that the tankers were authorized and that paperwork has been produced and shown on various forums over the years. The tankers are genuine Code 2 models. The tankers without the decals are almost Code 1 models (with the exception that they never were available for retail purchase).

Another model produced at nearly the same time was the Herbie the Love Bug models by Dicks Hobby Shop. These VW's were assembled by Lesney and later modified by removing the labels and adding decals. However, these models are a Code 2 as authorized by Lesney. The paperwork proof of that fact was also presented on a web forum several years ago.

At the time of concern, it was pretty simple to get Code 2 authorization and, if you could use a few hundred models, you could get a special color run of blanks produced. In contrast to this, the wrecker was produced in very low numbers, had those very suspicious crimp axles and no letter of authorization from Lesney.

Obfuscation, rumor, folklore, personal assumptions/conclusions based on emotion and misinformation have all lead up to confusion which has elevated this hand full of models to a cult status.

These are the facts as I see them. Why anyone would want to pay thousands of dollars for this model escapes me personally. Especially when so many fakes of this model are about (same goes for the Herbie the Love Bug model, the fakes greatly outnumber the actual models). Further, in my personal opinion, the cost to paint test one of these wreckers is more than the model is worth.

The one person here who champions the cause of these models does not own one and I doubt he's ever held one in hand. He wasn't connected to the same group of collectors that circulated these and lives too far away to have any connection or first hand knowledge of this model. Regardless, continues to feed the folklore with personal conclusions based on assumption.

I think anyone considering buying one of these needs to review the actual available facts (though few they are) and decide just how much it's worth to them. After all, what you are really buying is 99% folklore and rumored legend.

For me, the day it was produced, it was a pig with lipstick on it. Age hasn't made them anything different.

I agree with Mick here, just because one collector only collects code 1's doesn't mean that the collector who collects rare code 2-3's is wrong to pay the money he is comfortable with paying, as long as there original code 2-3's.

tjlglass wrote:I agree with Mick here, just because one collector only collects code 1's doesn't mean that the collector who collects rare code 2-3's is wrong to pay the money he is comfortable with paying, as long as there original code 2-3's.

Except all the evidence rules out them being a Code 2. At best, they are unauthorized Code 3's made inside the factory ... and that's if you don't have one of the many fakes of the factory fake! If you find one of the original factory fakes, the price becomes subjective to the value each individual places on folklore. As we've seen in the past, some think folklore is worth thousands of dollars and for others, only a few hundred.

IMHO, even mentioning Code 2's in the same sentence as the model in question is continuing to perpetuate disinformation. My opinion is that the model defies classification using the Code 1,2 or 3 status and should be lumped in with Lunch Box specials and Back Door customs.

I think it's more of a code 2 and a half as it was made in the factory lol. My comment was simply to say there are code 2-3 collectors out there who do pay top $$$ for original models as there are collectors who will pay extra for Errors or Friday Afternooners and to dismiss them is wrong IMHO.