58a gold grill code1,flat black

[mbox2000]

My 58s's are definitely and unmistakably silver with no traces of "tarnish" so I find this one very interesting. Would love to see it in hand.

[tractorboy]

I have grep plastic wheel, flat black base model and looking carefully can detest traces of gold on the trim.

IMG_6395.jpg (19.11 KiB) Viewed 842 times

Most noticeable on the blue above the badge and to the side

IMG_6396.jpg (15.33 KiB) Viewed 842 times

Also noticeable around the headlights

IMG_6397.jpg (14.05 KiB) Viewed 842 times

The badge emblem itself is more silver.
Will take some outdoor shots tomorrow morning if it is clear & sunny to see if that improves the photos.

[SMS88]

The B of BEA is a fine dark blue which suggests to me that finger grease or some chemical has rubbed on the front and discoloured standard silver trim

1) I think the blue B of the BEA badge on the front of the model is simply the result of the blue body paint showing through, either as a result of high-edge wear (e.g. in the box) or because the original application used rather thin paint which did not coat very well.
2) Please provide evidence for finger grease/"some chemical" turning silver paint gold. Please also provide either an explanation of why we do not see this transformation on other (playworn) models, or photographic evidence of models where the silver trim has discoloured to gold as the result of exposure to finger grease/"some chemical".

re 1) Everybody here can look closely at the front of the B of BEA and prove to their own satisfaction that B isnt the highest spot in the centre of the front and that there are other equally high areas of metal on the front of the bus showing no signs of high edge paint wear.We all know how thick and opaque Lesney silver and gold trim paint was.
re 2) we have seen multiple examples of silver trim discoloured to gold on other models - the best examples that I recall discussed here were 57a. Anyone wishing to try and turn a brush silver trimmed model into a goldish trimmed model could try warming up the toy to body temperature in a greasy unwashed hand for circa ½ hour and rubbing greasiest finger vigorously over the silver trimmed area to see if it turns or simpy apply traditional Brasso metal polish to the sweaty hand temperature toy and wash off after it has had time to soak in and dry

[Idris]

The B of BEA is a fine dark blue which suggests to me that finger grease or some chemical has rubbed on the front and discoloured standard silver trim

1) I think the blue B of the BEA badge on the front of the model is simply the result of the blue body paint showing through, either as a result of high-edge wear (e.g. in the box) or because the original application used rather thin paint which did not coat very well.
2) Please provide evidence for finger grease/"some chemical" turning silver paint gold. Please also provide either an explanation of why we do not see this transformation on other (playworn) models, or photographic evidence of models where the silver trim has discoloured to gold as the result of exposure to finger grease/"some chemical".

re 1) Everybody here can look closely at the front of the B of BEA and prove to their own satisfaction that B isnt the highest spot in the centre of the front and that there are other equally high areas of metal on the front of the bus showing no signs of high edge paint wear.We all know how thick and opaque Lesney silver and gold trim paint was.
re 2) we have seen multiple examples of silver trim discoloured to gold on other models - the best examples that I recall discussed here were 57a. Anyone wishing to try and turn a brush silver trimmed model into a goldish trimmed model could try warming up the toy to body temperature in a greasy unwashed hand for circa ½ hour and rubbing greasiest finger vigorously over the silver trimmed area to see if it turns or simpy apply traditional Brasso metal polish to the sweaty hand temperature toy and wash off after it has had time to soak in and dry

We all know that trim wears preferentially to paint and a thin coating (such as would be found on high points) is easily removed e.g. by repeatedly holding the model at the ends between thumb and index finger. All it would take for the b to wear preferentially would be uneven application of the original paint.
Please provide a link to the 57a discussion you refer to. (N.B. We should remember that the 57a does come with genuine gold trim.) Furthermore, we are not talking about goldish trim here, we are talking about gold trim. (See the photographs in the first post.)
As regards the methods for converting silver into gold trim, I feel that we are entering the realms of fantasy here. (Realistically, what are the chances of a child having held this coach for 30 minutes in order to warm it up, and then deciding to rub a greasy finger vigorously over a small spot of silver trim? Ditto Brasso.)

[SMS88]

idris ´´We all know that trim wears preferentially to paint and a thin coating (such as would be found on high points) is easily removed e.g. by repeatedly holding the model at the ends between thumb and index finger. All it would take for the b to wear preferentially would be uneven application of the original paint.
Please provide a link to the 57a discussion you refer to. (N.B. We should remember that the 57a does come with genuine gold trim.) Furthermore, we are not talking about goldish trim here, we are talking about gold trim. (See the photographs in the first post.)
As regards the methods for converting silver into gold trim, I feel that we are entering the realms of fantasy here. (Realistically, what are the chances of a child having held this coach for 30 minutes in order to warm it up, and then deciding to rub a greasy finger vigorously over a small spot of silver trim? Ditto Brasso.)´´

If folks are too lazy to experiment then its clear they dont really care whether or not hand painted silver trim can be transformed into gold easily at home. If idris doesnt have any brasso at home to tint warm silver paint gold then perhaps he should warm up one of his toys in his own hand after eating a big juicy orange with his fingers and see if the toy gains gold trim as if by magic........
A model like this is here is not about ´´what are the chances´´, it is a case of examining it and finding out facts´´how is silver paint turned to gold?´´. 1950s to 1970s it was totally normal for kids to go out holding a toy car in their sweaty hands for however long they were out - the scientific point is that the brush silver used by Lesney never cures totally and becomes tacky when heated to hand temperature, a point at which it can absorb anything else that is on a sweaty grubby hand by accident or deliberately if a collector made this one here.
Anyone who wants to read the old 57a gold trim discussion is welcome to dig it out for themselves and read my comment about models shown in the thread looking like tainted silver trimmed examples.As far as I can see. Vectis have NOT sold any obviously genuine gold trimmed 57a yet and all those I have seen shown in photos so far dont look genuine authentic Lesney brush applied gold to my eyes - merely accidental or deliberate fakes........

[Idris]

If folks are too lazy to experiment then its clear they dont really care whether or not hand painted silver trim can be transformed into gold easily at home.

You're the one making the claims and attempting to disprove that the trim on the 58a was originally silver, so you provide the proof. You show us that your theories hold water.
There are plentty of photographs of convincing gold-trimmed 57a Wolseleys here.

[matchbox_n_molars]

I'm not ready to start looking for a gold-trimmed BEA coach but I think there are enough examples of gold-trimmed Wolseleys to conclude that there genuinely was a run of factory produced gold-trimmed models. The examples I've seen have nice uniform gold color. Surely they can't all be a result of some sort of greasy-hand, play related chemical corrosion. We see the same mix of silver and gold trimmed models on the 10B mechanical horse (released 1957) as we do on the 57A Wolseleys (released 1958). For me it is not a stretch at all to embrace the gold-trimmed Wolseley as a genuine variation.

On a related note: Do we really "know" that trim was done on some models (19B MGA comes to mind) with a mix/blend of silver and gold trim paint? Or is this a theory based on the observation that the gold color is less vivid on some models?

[Idris]

On a related note: Do we really "know" that trim was done on some models (19B MGA comes to mind) with a mix/blend of silver and gold trim paint? Or is this a theory based on the observation that the gold color is less vivid on some models?

I have several models where the trim is, very clearly, a marbled mix of gold and silver. The two examples I can recall off the cuff are a maroon 17a and a 35a. My theory is that when empty, the pots for trim paint were simply refilled rather than a new one being issued. In this way, if gold paint was put in a pot which had previously conatined silver paint and vice versa, it was possible for these strange mixtures of gold and silver paint to be created and end up on the models.

[SMS88]

If folks are too lazy to experiment then its clear they dont really care whether or not hand painted silver trim can be transformed into gold easily at home.

You're the one making the claims and attempting to disprove that the trim on the 58a was originally silver, so you provide the proof. You show us that your theories hold water.
There are plentty of photographs of convincing gold-trimmed 57a Wolseleys here.

Thankyou for the link, this is exactly the sort of dodgy 57a with goldish high spots, silver low spots and strong signs of greasy palm wear that I will always suspect as a silver factory original degraded to gold.Gold leaf paint is gold leaf paint and silver leaf paint is silver leaf paint.They can be mixed on one brush in the factory if somebody was sloppy

[matchbox_n_molars]

"strong signs of greasy palm wear"

In the earlier post you mentioned a juicy orange as an example of something "greasy". I'm not a chemist but I know enough to assume that acidic citrus residue would react differently on the surface of a painted toy than skin oils or the grease off the engine block on my TR-4. Is it acid or oil you are identifying as the guilty culprit?
And I still can't understand why it would be that these "strong signs of greasy palm wear" would have such a strong predilection for the 57a Wolseley over and above any other silver trimmed model of the same era. Gold-trimmed 57a's are far from common but there are enough of them to say it simply makes no sense to suggest they all are a result of some sort of environmental (greasy palm wear) corrosion.