37B Karrier Bantam SPW

[GHOSTHUNTER]

Hi Roger, thanks for all the hard work you have put-in on taking all those extra photos and the very accurately described comments. If I had only seen the pictures of those axle-ends, It would ring alarm bells suggesting you have many 'Tampered-with' models. However, you seem to be a Guy who knows his stuff and I am sure the models you have shown are genuine, as far as you know, plus the chances of every model in your collection being a 'tampered' example is pretty remote.

So where does this leave us...

You seem to have provided evidence that Lesney sourced axle-ends from this period of production for the Karrier Bantam, can be very in-consistant and the fact that so many of them have aged and rusted confirms this, it is very difficult to age and rust clean steel to the same level as shown on your examples.

Where this puts your yellow Karrier Bantam I am not sure, I think we can agree on the overall damage, but I think we still have to have reservations about the axle-ends, despite what you have said and shown, maybe some more research and more models to be found to help give your model the credit its due.

On another thread, I stated something about not destroying known faked or tampered models, because we can use them in such articles as this one here and a lot can be learned from such models, in many cases the method of how some fakes have been created can be discovered by having the models.

Regards,
GHOSTHUNTER.

[kwakers]

This rare wheeled Coke Truck axle problem is one every veteran collector has come up against at least several times. If these axle ends were on a 'common' variation, I still would have to question the front axle dome. As you pointed out and I stated, the rear axle has the flat center of Lesney production axles as we know them. It is the front axle that looks non-factory without that center flat area. Perhaps by providing such clear and distinct pictures of your axle ends and some of those in your collection, we are all left wondering HOW consistent Lesney workers had to be in order to secure these riveted axles. Hitting them lightly with the spinning tool would leave the end of the axle flat only if that axle were cut flat to begin with. If that axle were cut at any kind of angle before spinning occurred, there certainly is a chance a defective or 'fake looking' axle end would result. You have now pictured some strange and 'fake looking' examples from your collection tractorboy. Note that it is fairly common to find some Lesneys with their axles installed in opposite directions, giving you one domed and the other spun on each side of the model.
Do we expect ALL 'rare' Lesney wheel combinations to have both perfect factory Lesney axle ends on them? YES! If they are not both perfect, doubt will still be in your mind about this rare piece 40 years from now tractorboy. Is this fair thinking? No, but my views have never changed on pursuing 'correct' Lesney axle ends on my rarest Lesney examples. I rather have a poor example with perfect axle ends than a Mint example I am not sure of. I see the point of your other bad riveting examples presented, but these examples do not give me any more confidence on rare models with even one defective looking crimp OR rivet on them.
Numi made the most valid point of axle ends being larger just under the rivets from peening them into the domed shape we know so well. Lesney always 'spun' the ends into a domed rivet with a proper shaped tool. With that method, axles remain consistent in diameter up to the rivet just like all but one of your supplemental pictured models illustrate. I would now have to question that sole model's originality also if it were mine with the ballooning of the axle under it's rivet head as shown.
None of this is meant to be critical, all are just points for everyone to consider when viewing and buying any of the rarest Lesney regular wheel variations. kwakers

[tractorboy]

Thanks ghosty & kwackers for the comments.

Yes, certainly agree with the comments about perfect axle ends and the easiest reason to the Karriers axle ends is what I first believed, hand peened ends.
Is it just my collection that has other examples? If yes, then I would have to assume that they too are fakes (now thinking should I get more out to have a look at).
The difficulty I have understanding is how there is a mixture of well formed, correct ends and what appear to be hand peened ends as seen on 3B Bedford IMG_5832, 10C IMG_5810, 11B IMG 5822.

I also pulled out another drawer and examined 40 models and found 5 with ends that would be classed as non standard or not 'correct' Lesney ends.

IMG_5846.jpg (20.74 KiB) Viewed 2422 times

IMG_5848.jpg (18.15 KiB) Viewed 2422 times

IMG_5851.jpg (21.42 KiB) Viewed 2422 times

IMG_5853.jpg (14.99 KiB) Viewed 2422 times

IMG_5855.jpg (16.72 KiB) Viewed 2422 times

The Weatherill has one axle with corrosion and the other fairly clean.

Is this unusual, am I just unlucky to have this number of suspect axle ends?
Does anyone have examples of similar to this is it just me?

[tractorboy]

Hitting them lightly with the spinning tool would leave the end of the axle flat only if that axle were cut flat to begin with. If that axle were cut at any kind of angle before spinning occurred, there certainly is a chance a defective or 'fake looking' axle end would result. . kwakers

Kwakers, I've just reread your post and I think I have a better understanding. I assumed that the axle ends would be rounded and domed but from what you are saying poorly formed ends could result from angled cut axles prior to the process which would produce ends similar to what I have shown. Thanks for the clarification.

Have heard back from the seller …

"Hi Rodger. I bought the model on trademe two or three years ago from ******** ( I think that was his trademe name) for several hundred dollars. In January 2013 it was up for auction at Vectis cat no. 2118 with an estimate of 700-900 pounds sterling, but it didn't reach the reserve. There was no comment from Vectis about the axles so I assume they didn't pick up any non-factory irregularities with the model. I thought that perhaps it didn't sell because of the dent in the window bar. That's all I can tell you. Hope this helps. Regards"

I've contacted the original seller to see if he can provide any provenance.

[SMS88]

There cetainly does appear to be significant evidence that one early axle peening machine made very small axle heads that were not always square.I can see that on a few of my common models.

[Idris]

I don't believe the axle=peening machine had a spinning tool head. If it did, why do peened axles show radial scoring (i.e. grooves running from the centre to the flared edge?)

[yellowfoden]

I've contacted the original seller to see if he can provide any provenance.

Hello Rodger,

Thanks for a very comprehensive study and answer.

Your axle end comparison shots are excellent and interesting.
I am fortunate in having many of my childhood Lesney which is the perfect provenance and reference. In amongst them are the similar axle end inconsistencies but I know are factory produced and serve as good comparison examples for axle end finishes of the same time period.

I look forward to hearing any news from the original seller on the history of your 37b with spw sometime down the track.

[tractorboy]

I've found details of the Vectis auction - lot 2118.
Can be viewed here http://www.vectis.co.uk/Page/ViewSearch ... id=0&ref=0

[kwakers]

The radial lines shown on some Lesney axle ends are the result of the multi edged axle finishing tool stopping while still in contact with the axle end Idris. One of the videos at Nick's site shows these axle machines in action at the Lesney Factory. If a common drill bit is stopped suddenly while drilling a hole, two distinct radial lines will be left from the center of the hole to the outside edge by that drill's two cutting edges. If the special axle tool were to have 4 cutting edges, 4 radial lines would be left when that tool is abruptly stopped.
The same is true of the base rivets. Most are very smooth and very uniform just as on 'good' axle ends. Once in a while you find a base rivet that was being spun and the tool was stopped with pressure still on it. The distinct flue marks of that tool can be seen on the rivet face rather than a nice smooth circular rivet head. If the spinning base rivet tool is held in contact too long, the rivet becomes too thin and the thinner pieces of the outer rivet may actually chip off.
Relating that to tractorboy's axle end without flat center, the spinning tool may have been held in contact longer than needed for the 'factory' end we like to see on all our rarest toys.
It isn't so much there were different types of axle finishing machines Mick, as much as the finishing tool 'bit' they used may have varied to leave either the flat center axle ends if used properly, or would leave a completely domed axle end if held longer against the same axle end.
I am glad you understand my point on the initial shape of the unmachined axle end affecting the look of the finished product tractorboy. That is a fact we might seldom consider if we are dealing with a cheaper common Lesney variation. To continue a technical discussion here of tooling used at Lesney would only feed our least trusted Sellers.......kwakers

[nickjones]

I don't believe the axle=peening machine had a spinning tool head. If it did, why do peened axles show radial scoring (i.e. grooves running from the centre to the flared edge?)

The axle peening machines did have a spinning tool head, otherwise all of the axles would have a thickened stem as seen on fakes, also the miss strikes would not have cut into the wheel but would simply have broken it instead,
I believe the tool was lowered and raised from the axle end manually, The spinning of the tool head was switched on and off by a simple trigger.
If the tool was raised from the axle end while it was spinning the axle end would not have the radial spokes, if it was stopped while it was still in contact with the axle end it would be left with the radial spokes.
The length of time the spinning tool was in contact would also show in the finished product, A long spin would give the axle end a larger mushroom head while a short spin would only burr it lightly.
so in effect we have 4 possible results.
1, long spin - tool in contact when spinning stops = large mushroom with radial spokes
2, long spin - tool raised while still spinning = large mushroom head without radial spokes
3, short spin - tool in contact when spinning stops = small mushroom head with radial spokes
4, short spin - tool raised while still spinning = small mushroom head without radial spokes
Only number 4 really concerns us here but can be found on many commons as well, It is more likely this could be down to pressures to get a job completed in time.