56A BPW BP VISCO STATIC

[kwakers]

Your statement once again SCM that the initial decal fakes 'were made to catch fakers' continues to bother me. but I do understand what you mean by it. If that statement is fact and known, I myself would never have condoned such conduct. If that initial re-assignment was known in America, the person doing the 'trap' would have been exposed by Harold Colpitts.
If this kind of Fake is made by ANY collector for the reason to 'Catch Fakers', it is twisted, sick logic. By initiating a FAKE, one becomes a FAKER. The unknown personality who initiates such a decal re-assignment must first have a stock of, or access to the original factory 'unused' decals. Removing old decals perfectly from our Lesneys after 15 years of curing (for their re-use) just does not seem to have been the case here. Was the unknown person you refer to SCM trying to find out who else may have had other unused factory Visco Static decals?? This unknown culprit with his foul actions would then have polluted the provenance of any genuine factory Visco Static example that could have been made during the last BPW 56A production.
These 'Rare' decal variations are best treated as Tinman states above anyway, but to each collector their own set of 'values' on what is their opinion, nothing more, nothing less......
I have never seen any Visco Static 56As personally either used or mint, but a mint one may have been offered and sold on E Bay last year by a respected U.K. Dealer. If a model cannot be proved as either fake or genuine, the choice to buy or own it is in the hands of those with interest in it.......... kwakers

[Ewan]

I would agree with Diecast, Tinman and Kwakers here on every point they make. To sum up a point I tried to make on the Pickford's Guy thread, even if you can prove 100% that something was faked in the 1980s or whenever, that is not the same as disproving that such a thing was ever made in the 1950s and 60s. To each their own....

[Idris]

At the end of the day, the biggest problem with accepting both the Visco-Static 56a and the two-line 46b as genuine factory variations is that they were first recorded, not at the time of their alleged release, but years later after The Great Clearout by the factory. The cream 62b is proof that this argument is not a watertight one, but I would suggest that it does cast doubt on these models' provenance. The other major stumbling block for me is the lack of playworn examples: obscure rarities which are only known in mint condition should sound warning bells.
Nevertheless, each to his own. If people wish to regard them as genuine variations, aspire to owning them, and are even prepared to pay significant sums of money to do so, so be it. Personally, I align myself with Tinman on decal variations and would not pay a premium for one unless it had absolutely cast-iron provenance (and even then it would need to be something very special indeed before I would even consider it). However, if I came across either of the variations under discussion in a tat box for mere pennies, then I would willingly buy it and be more than happy to display it as part of my collection.

[nickjones]

And where does it leave us, do we have to discount the 5c peardrax and baron of beef routemasters, The 5b visco-static or the 5d baron of beef, pegram or news of the world ?.

[kwakers]

Perhaps the quoted words of my old friend Harold Colpitts which remain in copies of his 1983 AIM Matchbox Guide describe the dilemma we have here Nick.
Direct Quote other than parenthesis area;
No's 3c and 3d (Two variations with Drink Peardrax decals he knew were factory shipped) are extremely rare models produced by Lesney. However, due to these decals being sold to collectors a few years ago, it is now impossible to authenticate those from an original! Any model now would be doubtful.

As depressing as Harold's statement is above, and also with the knowledge of the intentional Fakes that SCM is now warning us about here, we see that nothing much has changed in 30 years. Your Guide is done very well Nick, and will always be open to these interesting discussions. None of us were in that factory 50+ years ago to discount any of your listed variations appearing in it today........ kwakers

[Tinman]

Scmcollection has made some repeated bold claims about specific models, specific catalogs/variation listings, about fraud and fraud detection. Scmcollection has made another bold claim: That they have first hand knowledge of the individuals involved in the faking of certain models. The prodigal soothsayer (the term is well suited to the unidentified poster scmcollection), had this to say, I quote his comments from an earlier multi page thread:

"I will say again in no uncertain terms, the green 2 line Pickfords is a fake using original left over “surplus / unused” decals. It’s not a theory, it’s a fact and it’s a fact that’s been lost in the passage of only 30 years. I am warning you, stop looking for it, don’t spend you hard earned pennies on it, I am not charging you for this info but in the end it’s your wallet & free will if you choose to agree with me or not."

"Most of these odd decaled models can be sourced back to a stash of decals that came onto the market in the UK back in the 1980s, others have been transferred using various techniques that I do not wish to go into deeply on a public forum but these are easily spotted after doing a bit of homework. I know of many other fakes like this, though I feel that if I mention which models these are (many accepted as real) a lot of the big names are going to get egg on their faces, in fact you will discover what you thought was trustworthy will be exposed for what it really is."

Clearly, the opinion expressed by the soothsayer is being presented as a fact. As to the claim he might have first hand knowledge, he posted this:

"specific models created from these surplus decals so that those in the know could see who was a fraudster; I know who these people are, what was made & who set about making facsimiles to sell on the collectors market & pocketing a small fortune."

There are now multiple threads, on the same subject and all started by the soothsayer. Some of the threads have several pages of discussion. These threads date back nearly two months. The unidentified soothsayer is a Superfast era collector and admits not to be very savvy with regular wheels. Also, claims not to be a forum kind of person and not very web savvy Despite those claims, a troll like presence has been established and we've all been baited by the soothsayer's opinion presented as a fact.

On another baited hook hung this comment:

"Some names I can’t give but the resellers / creators I am more than HAPPY to pass on when the time comes, this will only be when you have the background and are happy with the report, doing this prematurely would be potentially disastrous & just turn into a mud slinging contest, not my sport sorry."

"A point to consider is that if a person is capable of making a decal fake then by that rationale they are capable of considering making any fake, thus decal fakes would likely be the tip of the “fakers” iceberg. Being a military policeman’s son I have a nose for these things."

If you want to present an opinion as a fact, you need to disclose all the names and all the details. Nothing short of that will be acceptable. Many of us are well experienced exposing fraudsters and their names (even if those individuals turn out to be popular collectors). Even this web forum has had its share of exposing members who were dishonest. That sort of thing is as old as the hobby and predates your entry into collecting. So no worries about protecting us from the subject of fraud and fakers.

Regardless of the soothsayer's comment that this sort of thing is "not your sport," scmcollecting has waded chest deep in mud already ... to late to get timid now.

The largest piece of bait is hanging on this hook:

" I promise you something interesting will be brought to the fore but only at the right time. For now please let’s talk about Scorpions in the SF forum & Pickfords vans (blue or green) in the regular wheel forum."

Over two months of baiting, multiple threads and multiple pages of discussion in those threads. Bold claims about facts and folklore and naming names. More bold talk calling out various guides/lists as incorrect and claiming such listings are fueling the fraudsters. How long will the baiting go on? Is the soothsayer a concerned collector or simply a troll stirring the pot?

Every thread has it's time before people lose interest and this constant baiting has becoming old already.

[Taniwha]

And where does it leave us, do we have to discount the 5c peardrax and baron of beef routemasters, The 5b visco-static or the 5d baron of beef, pegram or news of the world ?.

Nick, I have the 5c Peardrax in heavily playworn condition. Damage to the decals aligns with damage to the paint underneath. The general wear and patina of the model is consistent with other 5c models in my collection and that I have seen over the years with the common decal types. I am happy that I did not pay too much for it (I purchased it from TJLGlass, incidentally). In my opinion it would be extremely difficult to overlay a waterslide decal on a chipped model and then make holes in the decal align with the chips beneath.

So, I am reasonably confident, unless someone proves conclusively otherwise, that my 5c with Peardrax left the factory that way.

Here are a couple of hasty (sorry for the quality) photos:



The other side has almost none of the decal left, but enough to see it is the Peardrax advert:



Cheers,
Gavin

[Tinman]

And where does it leave us, do we have to discount the 5c peardrax and baron of beef routemasters, The 5b visco-static or the 5d baron of beef, pegram or news of the world ?.

The soothsayer has already spoken about this issue. I quote the exact comment"

" I did not mention the models you were talking about (Perdrax 5c etc) and do accept that real ones exist, though personally I would never pay a high price for any of them and if one did come before me I would need to know its provenance before making what would have to be a very modest purchase. I am not talking about these so please forget them as their history is indeed well documented."

[Tinman]

Where is the soothsayer?

[Chris.Okell]

Hi,

I have two of these. One with smooth BPW and one with KBPW. Both purchased from Vectis in the last very large matchbox collection they had for sale(last year).

I will put up a couple of pics.