R W #22 PONTIAC tow guide

[nickjones]

JB. With only half of the tow guide present it would technically be an error piece. Nice find though!.

[johnboy]

JB. With only half of the tow guide present it would technically be an error piece. Nice find though!.

doh, thanks Nick. That didn't occur to me because I think I've seen around four of these now.

[nickjones]

Hi John.
There are probably a lot more of them out there but if you include one you have to include them all,

[kwakers]

I very seldom comment against one of our fearless leader's Posts or views, but I will with my apologies included right up front Nick. I will also add that I have no examples of the 22 Grand Prix that Johnboy shows with that partial tow hitch, but I do see his second example as a variation rather than just an 'error'.
We have a precedent on the license plate without base tow guides on the 1E Mercedes Truck which was well documented by Michael Stannard with 3 of those variations listed with all three different bumper types. Also as a precedent to listing other possibilities we find (that seem quite common today) are the ones WE HAVE ADDED with only tow guides but no bumper extension or 'license plate' to complete the tow guide on this same 1E Mercedes Truck. As you have said about it above Nick,

Hi John.
There are probably a lot more of them out there but if you include one you have to include them all,

Why Not if the odd combinations exist in more than just tiny numbers today?? They were found in our stores with these odd out of sequence base/body mixtures, so none of these detailed additions are just isolated error pieces in my opinion. The Detailist in the Cave, kwakers....

[nickjones]

Hi Dick.
There were 3 different body castings of the 1e Mercedes body, they can be found with or without the guides on the baseplate, hence I listed them all.
I have to draw the line somewhere or the variation tables would become cluttered with variations that may not even exist.
Jason and I both have a 21c Commer with gpw's but the left rear wheel is spw, should I include this one too?.

[kwakers]

One odd wheel with three normal colored wheels on a Lesney is an error piece Nick, not a 'New' variation no matter how many we find of them, we both agree there. (Your example now makes me feel like I live in Austria in the mountains and I have not explained myself well.....nicht Gut Caveman
The 1E Mercedes body has well over 10 different body castings Nick when we include every detail we have shared on that casting. My point above was simply that the models we all have in our collections with that front license plate casting, when paired at the factory with bases without these same guides, have never been considered errors on that Truck.
These #22 Grand Prixs with the later front license plate body, but still using an earlier non guide base mated to them at the factory show me that the changeover to complete tow guides could have possibly been done in two stages Nick. The license plate bodies were ready, but it now seems to me that the supply of the guide bases either was not ready, or was inadequate at the time for full production of the paired tow castings. Hence, the resulting single 'changeover' variation here seems quite legitimate in my opinion. It may also be a case of just using up earlier stored bases during later production of this 22 at the factory. This same mixing of aging components has resulted in some notable rare variations on other Lesneys we have noted in your listings.
Either way, this Grand Prix single variation can be coded exactly as the 8E Mustang variations and the 1E without base tow guides. The Mustangs with license plates but without guides were not errors, they were produced that way. We have never talked of adding variations that don't exist here Nick, it is simply my reasoning behind adding only this single #22 GP changeover variation.
To call a discovery like a changeover variation 'clutter' is not what you intended Nick, but have you been collecting too many Superfasts on the 'Darkside' lately?? Dick

[Idris]

I agree with Dick. Mixed whels on a model is obviously an error piece, but a combination of standard components in an unintended way (something we have seen over and over again, IMHO as the result of the discovery and subsequent use of earlier castings in the stockroom) is definitely a valid variation and, provided Martin's Maxim of two example is met, such models deserve to be given a variation code.

[GHOSTHUNTER]

The same 'Towing Facility' progression is seen on the #24c Silver Shadow saloon.

Clear, Part 1 and Part 2..JPG (149.22 KiB) Viewed 930 times

First models from 1967 are totally clear.
About half a Dozen models later, the first part of the 'Towing Facility' was added to the underside of the valance by way of a small panel, still during 1967.
Another Five or so models would pass before they added the Second part consisting of Two 'Pips' at the very front edge of the baseplate and my old paper notes say this was done in early 1969.

There must be a few models in the range that were treated to the same type of modification.

GHOSTHUNTER.

[nearlymint]

There are a few variations to this model that are not listed, I do have this listed and as John has said there are a few about. Very nice cross over model. J

[kwakers]

As for your 24 Rolls Ghosty, in November at our local Toy Show I found an example of that model with no license plate on the body, but it was assembled with that later base with tow guides on it. For $10 in Mint condition, I was very excited to find it in someone's childhood 48 Car Case a vendor had recently bought. Because Mike Stannard had missed that variation along with the old AIM and NAMC Guides, I got to pencil it into my Lesney 'Bible' I carry with me. I was quite shocked to come home and find that odd combination was already listed in Nick's online Guide. I Love it....
Also, As I was cataloging a 34C VW Van this weekend Ghosty, I realized this model was developed just as your Rolls was with a plain bumper and base, then the license plate was added after a bit with no tow guides on it's base, and then finally sold with a complete tow guide on it. I had forgotten about this VW Bus' similar base and bumper tow guide development.
Because my original 22 Grand Prixs were stolen years ago, I cannot say I had one of them with just a license plate like John's for sure, but I believe I now remember I had one because they were a well known U.S. variation featured in both Bob Brennen's NAMC Guide from 1971, and also in Harold Colpitts AIM Guide first printed in 1976. 30 years after printing, I can't explain how or why Mike Stannard missed this tow Guide development on the 22. I now realize I have to find a replacement for our collection Thanks to John's reminder on this older Post. kwakers