#23 caravan with windows

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nickjones
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Re: #23 caravan with windows

Post by nickjones »

original post by hugh, somehow it ended up in the 63b thread!!!!!

kwakers wrote:The glazed Caravan you also mention Antonin is Item #331110494259, and it features a photo with the base off. The window unit holes seem larger than the unspun roof rivets on the body, and the rare window unit now seems to be held in by 4 spots of clear glue towards it's corners. Maybe it is just my old eyes. ;) kwakers



You're right, Dick! Not only did Harvey destroy a piece of Lesney history by drilling out the roof rivets on the original model, it would seem that he also seriously damaged the glazing unit in the process.
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Re: #23 caravan with windows

Post by nickjones »

The original seller of the glazed caravan also had another 3 caravans with windows. They all had crimped axles.
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Nick Jones.
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Re: #23 caravan with windows

Post by kwakers »

I believe this Post has been overlooked because it is in the E Bay section. I was here all weekend and missed it, How many others did the same these last few days? This Post innocently started, now belongs in the mast conspicuous location in our Forum. How about a questionable Ethics section?..... Too controversial and reeking of liability issues......How about the biggest Lie of 2013?.......Not quite enough.......I have it! BENDING THE RULES OF LESNEY COLLECTING AND HOPING EVERYONE ELSE IS BLIND, SILENT, and IGNORANT, (Not necessarily in that order). Perfect......kwakers
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Re: #23 caravan with windows

Post by yellowfoden »

kwakers wrote: Hardy has two units now listed in his store with Glazing (at different prices).

May I put out a plea for the original E Bay listing photos of Jason's model with original roof rivets and glaze to be posted here,
Hello Kwakers,

Here is the original inside view of the 23c glazed unit you were seeking.

While it looks like there are two listings on the sellers site they would appear to be using the same photos.

I also note there is a mention of 5 known glazing units in the description. It would be interesting to know if the figure of five relates to just the diamond pattern glazing unit type.

So far the forum has shown images of 3 diamond pattern glazing units and one plain unit in recent times.
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kwakers
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Re: #23 caravan with windows

Post by kwakers »

You are correct Yellowfoden, only one in Nick's picture does NOT have the diamond pattern, was unknown till Nick showed that photo, and may be the only one ever produced without etching it, or perhaps the only one in existence today. It was rumored that Hardy already had the 3 known glazed units before he bastardized the Pre-pro he bought off E Bay for 1000 Pounds.
Thanks foden for the quick response on the original auction picture. I will file it in a safe place this time with a reference to the original auction number. A close inspection shows the same crack in same place on the glaze of the original pre-pro trailer of Jason's as on the one Hardy has 'Built' as a Fake 'Pre-pro'. Coincidence? Fat chance of that only a fool might believe. The swap of Jason's glaze for a pre-pro is now in question? How shocking and unexpected. Perhaps the removed unit was copied while it was out of Tim/Jason's Body as Numi had suspected may have been the original plan? Who can be sure of anything presented by the Seller now.....I am off to drive my Lorry in tears and also thoroughly disappointed at such a stupid public display of butchery....Dick
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Re: #23 caravan with windows

Post by Tinman »

ChFalkensteiner wrote:
tjlglass wrote:The original caravan that was discussed had crimped axles and was a genuine pre pro...
Just to make that perfectly clear: in Hardy's opinion that model was not a genuine pre-pro. As he told me he thought the axle had been crimped by somebody by hand after the wheels had come loose due to heavy play.

I am not in a position to judge whether this assessment is valid or not, but I can confirm that this is Hardy's view of that model. And this explains why he sold it on cheaply after he had removed the glazing unit.
Did he think that someone had spun the rivets down (on the glazing) because it too had come loose during heavy play? How did the window glazing get riveted into that early model if it was NOT a prepro? How does he explain telling Christian that he traded the off the glazing unit (possibly inside another model) to someone for some other prepros when it's obvious that his auction model has the glazing unit in question? Why is there no disclosure of the tampering involved in the auction model?

We've already seen that Hardy's opinion isn't worth squat. When a person places a disclaimer into every auction, which assures buyers that each and every item they sell is genuine, then offer a tampered home made model ... that's called Fraud. When a dealer makes up a story about the disposition of a tampered model and then that model turns up in their auction, being offered as genuine; that's lying to cover up fraud. Once this sort of thing happens, it does not really matter what said person says next as too many lies have already been exposed.

Hardy told another member that the window glazing was loose inside the model and that he (Hardy) removed it out of fear of further damage. Those holes in that window glazing are drilled to excess. I've taken apart many models and never had to drill into window glazing to release it from rivet posts. To me, that indicates the window was very secure inside the previous model. That glazing survived 55 years of rough play and the only damage I see is a small crack at the rivet post. That crack can happen two ways: 1) When the glazing is riveted in place. 2) Due to pressure from the drill bit that's drilling off the rivet post. We will never know the answer and can now never trust any answer hardy might give.

No one else who's seen the original model in hand thinks that it was anything but a prepro. No one who's commented on all the photos shown (past and present) has posted an opinion that comes anywhere close to Hardy's. Since Hardy is standing fast on his personal opinion that he "thought" the model was NOT a prepro ... what value can the collector world assign to his opinion?

We've seen this exact situation unfold time and again with Fraudsters and Fakers: Too much untruth, non-disclosure of serious tampering and constant assurance that they sell only genuine original models. That combined with creating a false back story about where the removed glazing went is what pretty much comes to light every time some Faker or Fraudster is caught red handed.
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Re: #23 caravan with windows

Post by Dr Jazz »

well said Kwakers and Tinman!!!
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Re: #23 caravan with windows

Post by kwakers »

I love all your observations and comments Joe, there is no ignoring the facts on this fake. One point: Too much pressure when the rivets were drilled out does not apply to this particular crack in this window glaze. The crack appears identical in the above auction picture before the Caravan had been sold. The crack in this case indicates a good tight riveting of the glazing unit in the pre-pro body just as you pointed out. As you have also indicated, those rough edges on the glaze rivet holes look like they were done by a drill during a very stubborn glaze removal.
Christian, how is it that not ONE negative comment on this ugly duckling, even Numi's distaste at it's beater condition, influenced anyone else's view of the model being a lost treasure. When the Seller Posted the above inside picture, most of us had not even noticed that the Caravan had crimped axles on it! It could have had NO axle, NO wheels, few of us cared about them. The important facts were that the casting was real, the windows were the first set ever found in circulation and pictured anywhere, and the rivets holding them into the body were factory. THAT is what mattered in the minds of we serious honest collectors both young and old.
When Hardy held that Caravan after winning it, he already knew what his plan was for the glaze, and he quickly destroyed the model without any thought. Hardy's opinion on that Caravan is factually proved dead wrong now that the existence of the other pre-pro Caravans with glaze has been published. The axle crimps are the same as on Jason's model, probably hand done in the R&D shop to test the window glaze fit rather than on the shop floor which had gone to axle riveting by that time. Hardy knows that now, and as a Lesney expert certainly realized that at the time he bought the model. He is now proving his faulty 'assessment', if we choose to call it that, will make an ass out of anyone willing to trust his 'Genuine Models' ever again. Just look at the Fake Caravan he has now shamelessly built with Jason's glaze. The identical crack in it is a dead giveaway that it is the same glaze. His latest rare Caravan is without spun roof rivets, and it is now being marketed as an authentic Pre-pro. Pure Trash......... kwakers
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Re: #23 caravan with windows

Post by Broughton »

This is a very interesting story for me, who isn't really versed concerning pre-pros and so on! Since I know Hardy, and sometimes bought a few of his items, I always wondered, where he got all those "rare" models? And in such quantity?.......
Would it be possible to get a statement from him in this forum??????
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Idris
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Re: #23 caravan with windows

Post by Idris »

Perhaps we should report the listing to Ebay en masse. If they get, say, 50 complaints all about the same item, even they might sit up and take notice.
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