K11A Fordson Tractor & Farm Trailer

[charliep]

K11A Fordson Tractor & Farm Trailer Issued 1963. All England castings.

Tractor color: Blue.
Tractor base: Blue; with or without "Matchbox".
Hook: Round or square.
Wheels: Black plastic tires (BPT). Light orange, orange, bright orange, red or dark red wheels.
Hubs: Metal (earlier versions) and later plastic.
Steering Wheel (SW): Silver (earlier models) or blue.
Headlights: Blue or silver.
Radiator grill: Silver.
Decals: Fordson Super Major.

Trailer Tipper: Gray or dark gray.
Base: Blue; with or without "Matchbox".
Hydraulic sleeve: Gray or black.
Towing eye: White plastic.

1. Blue body/no "Matchbox" on base/silver SW/round hook/BPT w/lt.orange whls/silver lts/gray trailer/no "Matchbox" on base/gray sleeve.
2. Blue body/no "Matchbox" on base/silver SW/round hook/BPT w/bright orange whls/silver lts/gry trailer/no "Matchbox" on base/gry sleeve.
3. Blue body/no "Matchbox" on base/silver SW/round hook/BPT w/orange whls/silver lts/gray trailer/no "Matchbox" on base/blk sleeve.
4. Blue body/no "Matchbox" on base/blue SW/round hook/BPT w/orange whls/silver lts/gray trailer/no "Matchbox" on base/blk sleeve.
5. Blue body/"Matchbox" on base/blue SW/round hook/BPT w/orange whls/silver lts/dark gray trailer/"Matchbox" on base/blk sleeve.
6. Blue body/"Matchbox" on base/blue SW/square hook/BPT w/red whls/blue lts/gray trailer/"Matchbox" on base/black sleeve.
7. Blue body/"Matchbox" on base/blue SW/square hook/BPT w/red whls/silver lts/dk.gray trailer/"Matchbox" on base/black sleeve.
8. Blue body/"Matchbox" on base/blue SW/square hook/BPT w/dk.red whls/silver lts/dk.gray trailer/no "Matchbox" on base/blk sleeve.
9. Blue body/"Matchbox" on base/blue SW/square hook/BPT w/org whls/silver lts/dk.gray trailer/no "Matchbox" on base/gry sleeve.

[Tinman]

Does anyone have a feel for how hard to find the variation is with metal wheel hubs?

It's logical to assume that the metal wheel hubs came on the early production models with the round hook, does anyone know if they were ever painted in red or did the metal hubs only come painted orange?

Edit for additional Qs

I'm fully aware of plastic hub shrinkage, but it sure seems to me that the metal hubs are larger than the plastic ones. So much so that a new mold had to be made for the rear tires that went on plastic hubs. The tires for the rear look pretty much the same (plastic VS metal hub tires) but the front tires and trailer tires (for the metal hubs) are slightly different in shape/profile.

[yellowfoden]

Does anyone have a feel for how hard to find the variation is with metal wheel hubs?

It's logical to assume that the metal wheel hubs came on the early production models with the round hook, does anyone know if they were ever painted in red or did the metal hubs only come painted orange?

Edit for additional Qs

I'm fully aware of plastic hub shrinkage, but it sure seems to me that the metal hubs are larger than the plastic ones. So much so that a new mold had to be made for the rear tires that went on plastic hubs. The tires for the rear look pretty much the same (plastic VS metal hub tires) but the front tires and trailer tires (for the metal hubs) are slightly different in shape/profile.

Some time ago I mentioned that five forum members had the K11a with orange metal hubs rear wheels. That number is now six members. Perhaps this is a guide to how hard they are to find.

In my comprehensive listing of all things K11a Fordson related, I only have the metal hubs as orange.
My timeline indicates silver hubs (pre-pro) followed by orange metal then orange plastic and then red plastic.

A Fred Bronner promotional photo shows the K11a Fordson with what look like Silver hubs.

Here are the diameter sizes as on my K11a outer rim

Orange metal 17.00mm (sorry can’t measure across inner part of rim because tyres are too tight to remove)

Orange plastic 15.00mm (14.98mm) 14.6mm diam across flat section

Red plastic 15.00mm (15.06mm)

K4a red or green metal 16.82mm
Note the tyres on all my K4a metal are on very tight so my measurement is as good as I can see so there may be some parallax error.

It is also worth noting that the K11a also has rear orange plastic hub with ribs on the inner face. I have not seen this type in red plastic.

You are correct about a new mould being made and if collectors are trying to identify by photo either the metal v plastic the differences are as follows- the size of the rear hubs, that the colour of the metal is a deeper orange, metal has a ridge on inner face and the tapered boss is smaller than the plastic wheel.

Bert

[Tinman]

Some time ago I mentioned that five forum members had the K11a with orange metal hubs rear wheels. That number is now six members. Perhaps this is a guide to how hard they are to find.

You only mention rear hubs here. Mine has metal hubs front and rear on the tractor and metal hubs on the trailer (which are the same metal hubs & tires as on the front of the tractor).

In my comprehensive listing of all things K11a Fordson related, I only have the metal hubs as orange.
My timeline indicates silver hubs (pre-pro) followed by orange metal then orange plastic and then red plastic.

A Fred Bronner promotional photo shows the K11a Fordson with what look like Silver hubs.

Here are the diameter sizes as on my K11a outer rim

Orange metal 17.00mm (sorry can’t measure across inner part of rim because tyres are too tight to remove)

Orange plastic 15.00mm (14.98mm) 14.6mm diam across flat section

Red plastic 15.00mm (15.06mm)

K4a red or green metal 16.82mm
Note the tyres on all my K4a metal are on very tight so my measurement is as good as I can see so there may be some parallax error.

It is also worth noting that the K11a also has rear orange plastic hub with ribs on the inner face. I have not seen this type in red plastic.

You are correct about a new mould being made and if collectors are trying to identify by photo either the metal v plastic the differences are as follows- the size of the rear hubs, that the colour of the metal is a deeper orange, metal has a ridge on inner face and the tapered boss is smaller than the plastic wheel.

Bert

The diameter of the rear metal hub (where the tires sit) is 15.5 mm.
The diameter of the front metal hubs (where the tires sit) is significantly larger at 11 mm. The shape and profile of the front tires (for the metal hubs) is different and larger.

Your comments/observations about the red VS orange rear hubs are dead on: Two different molds/styles and ever so slightly different sizing.

[Tinman]

I went back and found the old thread you mentioned.  My apologies as I had totally forgotten the thread and nearly all of the subject matter. I had even forgotten that I had a K11 set with metal hubs, grey hydro sleeve etc, etc.  I guess it's one of the humbling and embarrassing factors of aging not so gracefully.  I can remember most things like it was yesterday but the things I don't remember seem to have no rhyme or reason.  It's like there are two Tinman members, the old one and the much older one.  The much older one went to that thread and learned from others. Sadly, one of those others included was younger me.  I'm probably not the only member here that may be having issues with memory, but I hope no one else is and I hope mine is just something trivial and not the onset of a more serious future.

On a less depressing note, I wonder where the variation with silver grille, WITHOUT painted headlights fits in the time line. I have one of those too, it has orange plastic hubs and a round tow hook.

For identification/classification uses, my K11a With the metal wheel hubs has silver trim including headlights and round hitch hook on the tractor and grey hydrosleeve and with NO "Matchbox" cast on the trailer.

[yellowfoden]

I have added a couple of images to above post of the inside hub metal versus plastic for those collectors not familiar with the detail difference.

Apart from your metal hub all round I think the only other with metal hubs all round shown on the forum is from Jason = hard to find.

Based on the listing above I would place this variation WITHOUT lights trimmed at between code 5 and 6. Charlie shows one with blue lights/square hook red plastic hubs. Yours is earlier. This could be narrowed down a bit further because there is a casting variation not shown above in the listing.
The casting difference on the K11a with orange metal hubs/unpainted steering wheel is on the front axle assembly where the frame is thin and on later versions a curved brace or thickening has been added and also extra webbing. See images
The model is made up of an upper and lower section that are riveted together. The casting difference is on the lower section while the hook is cast to the upper section. This will result in the use of crossover parts.

But it raises and interesting question about just how long the masks were used for the models with blue head lights
I wonder how the lights were left blue as this would indicate a very delicate mask for the lights to be blanked out.
I would suggest if this is how it was done the masks would not have lasted as long as the masks with no solid section for lights resulting in all silver trim. See my attempt as possible mask.
Out of curiosity is the silver trim complete or are there lines unpainted

OR

Have the lights been masked sprayed in blue over the silver? If this is the case we have a new mask spray trim colour for our list.

Bert

[Tinman]

Below is a half way decent close up of the front grille on my metal hub tractor. It has the non-reinforced front axle area. It also has what I do believe is unpainted headlights. I have also included a grille photo of my second tractor (with reinforced front axle, plastic hubs and round tow hook). It too has unpainted tail lights and is a better example.

When viewed straight on, the trim paint coverage looks pretty good. When viewed from an angle looking down on the grille (say at 45*), you can see a pattern coming off the headlights and moving upward (and perhaps slighty outward) where the finish is thin, as if partially obscured by the light castings or something else. This pattern is most pronounced on the newer tractor with plastic hubs but can also be detected on the older tractor as well. I strongly suspect that pattern has something to do with the mask and it's shape. Also of note is how the mast fails to crisply obscure the headlights and gives them a sloppy look. Click on thumbnails to enlarge.

Plastic hub tractor:

Metal hub tractor:

[Tinman]

I was organizing my Kingsize beaters and play worn models tonight. Lo and behold I found another early casting tractor with rear metal hubs (front hubs are plastic on this one) and matching trailer (also with plastic hubs) with NO "Matchbox" cast (blank there) and the grey hydro sleeve. I'm pretty happy discovering that right in my own back yard.

[Tinman]

Here's an interesting fact about the grey hydro sleeves: The inside diameter of the grey sleeve is slightly smaller than the black sleeves and the die-cast piston part also has a slightly corresponding diameter.

That means that the sleeve and the piston are NOT interchangeable with the black hydro sleeve. The grey sleeve has to have the same early production (or maybe even pre-pro) two parts (sleeve and piston). That means that these parts can not be randomly mixed in with later production models. Different molds had to exist for the grey sleeve and the corresponding pistons. To me, that almost feels like pre-production parts. Combine that with the missing "MATCHBOX" on the trailer and it really starts to seem pre-production.

Looking for thoughts and comments on the subject.

[yellowfoden]

Hi Joe,

Any chance that you could measure the diameter of the piston for the grey sleeve please. I am curious to see if it the same as found on some other king size and where it fits those in terms of time line. Nice work by the way in giving this a new lease of life on the farm.

Bert