#23 caravan with windows
Re: #23 caravan with windows
IMHO it was a pre pro and if the new owner wants to comment I'm sure he will. I'm not sure they were machine crimped and were poss done with one of the hand crimps that they had in R&D for quickness.
Re: #23 caravan with windows
It was pretty well documented that the rivets were drilled to remove the glazing. The original model has been inspected by two savvy collectors and determined it was a pre-pro or at least a trial. Hardy's excuse for destroying the model and removing the glazing was two fold: One reason given was that the windows were cracked near the rivet posts (from the rivet being spun at the factory) and that he feared more damage occurring. Second, in his opinion the axles had been tampered with and that the crimps were not done by Lesney.
While the window insert may have been cracked underneath, it withstood rigorous play over the last 55 years without further damage and the rivet posts had to be drilled to remove it. His discounting the axles was a serious error in judgement. He literally dumped the carcass of the factory assembled ultra rare model like last weeks garbage. The whole excuse sounds like bullshit.
While I will agree he has every right to do what he wants with his own property, I stand firmly against the wanton destruction of such an ultra rare model (regardless of the condition). He can make all the judgement calls and offer all the opinions he wants ... I now discount any generic opinion he might offer and see a serious lack of judgement on his part. Even worse, I have completely lost any trust in his judgement, dealings and any future opinions or comments.
Why would one simply not sell or trade the windows in a stand alone deal. What was gained by creating a fake? If the new owner wanted to combine the windows with a model, then so what (until it comes on the market). But for a noted dealer, collector and someone who claims to be a purist to create a fake is very wrong.
What concerns me the most is that he created a fake and profited from that fake. This makes his highly virtuous disclaimer total Bull Shit! You can't have it both ways. Drilling out those windows and fixing them into a mint model is doing exactly what he claims never to do!
When someone constantly claims to be of top caliber virtue and they start destroying ultra rare models to make fakes with the parts ... I don't care how nice a guy they might be, how great their collection is or how much he/she knows about this or that model, they have just become another ass-hole like all the rest of the liars and fakers.
I commented on this before and I will comment again. I found the destruction of the play worn caravan to be offensive and an action that's counter productive to the hobby and the history. To learn that he's created a fake and used it to further his own means is obscene and even more offensive to me (especially in light of the disclaimer he proudly presents with all of his dealings.
While the window insert may have been cracked underneath, it withstood rigorous play over the last 55 years without further damage and the rivet posts had to be drilled to remove it. His discounting the axles was a serious error in judgement. He literally dumped the carcass of the factory assembled ultra rare model like last weeks garbage. The whole excuse sounds like bullshit.
While I will agree he has every right to do what he wants with his own property, I stand firmly against the wanton destruction of such an ultra rare model (regardless of the condition). He can make all the judgement calls and offer all the opinions he wants ... I now discount any generic opinion he might offer and see a serious lack of judgement on his part. Even worse, I have completely lost any trust in his judgement, dealings and any future opinions or comments.
When did it become OK to destroy rare factory assembled models (by drilling off parts) to make a mint model? That's tampering and the newly created model is a fake. The play worn model had value as a whole (with the windows riveted in). The pre-production windows by themselves have a value as a pre-production part. But to combine the windows (with glue or some other method) into a mint model creates a fake model, assembled by someone after the fact.ChFalkensteiner wrote: So the glazing units themselves are genuine pre-production items, but the whole models in which they have been fitted are not. It is therefore considered OK to remove such a glazing unit from a badly chipped model and fit it into a mint one (which is easily done because the baseplate of this model can be removed and re-fitted easily) .
Why would one simply not sell or trade the windows in a stand alone deal. What was gained by creating a fake? If the new owner wanted to combine the windows with a model, then so what (until it comes on the market). But for a noted dealer, collector and someone who claims to be a purist to create a fake is very wrong.
Why is what he did OK and switching parts to make rare models not OK? Since the windows were drilled out and switched to a mint model (to make an ultra rare model), how is this different? He paid a pretty penny to get the model with the windows and one would assume the model he received in trade was of equal or greater value. But why make a fake and just not trade or sell the windows?ChFalkensteiner wrote: I was told that the particular glazing unit which was discussed last year was fitted into a mint example of the model which was then traded with an unnamed fellow collector for some other pre-production item. I do not know whether the example offered on eBay now is the same one or not.
What concerns me the most is that he created a fake and profited from that fake. This makes his highly virtuous disclaimer total Bull Shit! You can't have it both ways. Drilling out those windows and fixing them into a mint model is doing exactly what he claims never to do!
When someone constantly claims to be of top caliber virtue and they start destroying ultra rare models to make fakes with the parts ... I don't care how nice a guy they might be, how great their collection is or how much he/she knows about this or that model, they have just become another ass-hole like all the rest of the liars and fakers.
I commented on this before and I will comment again. I found the destruction of the play worn caravan to be offensive and an action that's counter productive to the hobby and the history. To learn that he's created a fake and used it to further his own means is obscene and even more offensive to me (especially in light of the disclaimer he proudly presents with all of his dealings.
It might be time to start my "Bucket List."
Re: #23 caravan with windows
I'm sorry if my opinion offends anyone (it will most likely offend one specific dealer for sure, but then we are now even as he offends me). One critical point needs to be made: The model that was wantonly destroyed was a Legendary and significant historical model of Vintage Matchbox. It was the kind of model that many spend a lifetime seeking. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought someone would drill it apart and essentially toss it out ... only to then create a FAKE using the windows.
It might be time to start my "Bucket List."
Re: #23 caravan with windows
We know that the model in question was found in the company of no less than three other 23c Caravans all fitted with window inserts (here). One of those other caravans also has a crimped axle.
The conclusion has to be that what Harvey bought was a genuine factory pre-production/trial and that the axle crimp was genuine Lesney (albeit maybe an R&D rather than a production one).
There is no doubt in my mind that by drilling out the glazing unit rivets, Harvey wantonly destroyed a piece of Lesney history thateveryone else on the Forum would have happily given their right arm for.
The conclusion has to be that what Harvey bought was a genuine factory pre-production/trial and that the axle crimp was genuine Lesney (albeit maybe an R&D rather than a production one).
There is no doubt in my mind that by drilling out the glazing unit rivets, Harvey wantonly destroyed a piece of Lesney history thateveryone else on the Forum would have happily given their right arm for.
Re: #23 caravan with windows
A purist would have been delighted to display that repainted crimped caravan alongside other genuine mint caravans however the person who ends up with the glazing removed from the repaint now merely owns the glazing that was removed from a genuine pre_pro.It will not ever be possible to factory rivit that glazing into another factory crimped axle EXAMPLE however every collector + dealer can get his hands on dozens of mint standard 23Cs that are spoiled by being opened up for this glazing unit. ANYONE can do what they like with their own toys however if they choose to do it publicly they must expect their audience to form opinions judging conduct.A lot of people were upset that all the FORD ESCORT MK1s used in the recent FAST & FURIOUS movie were recycled after filming instead of being offered for sale back to the Classic car community that they were source from - wealthy folks destroy herItage daily for their own amusement ..........
Re: #23 caravan with windows
All this just makes me sad, I hope that chap who has the 3 different ones will look after them and if he sells I hope someone with love for these models will buy it.
Have a look in my ebay listings http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/dr_jazz/m.htm ... pg=&_from=
Re: #23 caravan with windows
This sure hadn't surprised anybody at the least cos we all saw this coming after the window-unit was drilled out of the original play-worn casting if this is definitely the same window-unit in question.The seller most certainly with all his Mb knowledge knows better than to tamper with all or any original,factory authentic historical Lesney artefacts.
I do not buy the story about seller in question being correct by any proclamation add any window glazing or window swops,any tampering etc post Lesney to justify his actions irrespective and then feel that it all good & kosher and whether now or later try pushing it into the open markets without firm honesty & transparency......it simply isnt right!! Thats fraud and plain theft under false pretence.
Again,if this certainly is the window-unit from the earlier casting in question then this seller is simply in self-acceptance and denial of his ill-deed but which supposedly makes him feel itchy cos these types of activities bring in $$$$ from unsuspecting buyers/investors/collectors to subsidise his lifestyles and collecting habits yet further proves his audacity to advertise this fake Windowed Caravan in the murky waters in hopes of gains yet more to the detriment of his reputation that has since tarnished.
If one looks closely u would clearly see the bad scratches on 3x window panels not mentioning the chemical residue haze in the diamond meshing.The condition & wear of the window-unit is certainly not consistent with the nMint body of this caravan.This donor casting seems to have been sheltered all its life with its mauve shiny paint yet he now sells the fake without a box although i know is of little or no consequence.The facts are glaring as to why he would not keep this advertised nMint windowed caravan casting in his collection.
I would really love to see a clear close-up pic of both roof rivets cos this could certainly prove that it does have the chipped & cracked area/part of the earlier/same window-unit in question that was so prominent or NOT.Are the rivets now spread,hammered or left alone.
The person right now in the glad-seat is actually our forum member who owns that over-painted & play-worn original pre-pro casting minus the window/glazing-unit and who owns the bragging rights of owning a piece of Mb history.
Just my take and hope not to offend anybody.
numi
I do not buy the story about seller in question being correct by any proclamation add any window glazing or window swops,any tampering etc post Lesney to justify his actions irrespective and then feel that it all good & kosher and whether now or later try pushing it into the open markets without firm honesty & transparency......it simply isnt right!! Thats fraud and plain theft under false pretence.
Again,if this certainly is the window-unit from the earlier casting in question then this seller is simply in self-acceptance and denial of his ill-deed but which supposedly makes him feel itchy cos these types of activities bring in $$$$ from unsuspecting buyers/investors/collectors to subsidise his lifestyles and collecting habits yet further proves his audacity to advertise this fake Windowed Caravan in the murky waters in hopes of gains yet more to the detriment of his reputation that has since tarnished.
If one looks closely u would clearly see the bad scratches on 3x window panels not mentioning the chemical residue haze in the diamond meshing.The condition & wear of the window-unit is certainly not consistent with the nMint body of this caravan.This donor casting seems to have been sheltered all its life with its mauve shiny paint yet he now sells the fake without a box although i know is of little or no consequence.The facts are glaring as to why he would not keep this advertised nMint windowed caravan casting in his collection.
I would really love to see a clear close-up pic of both roof rivets cos this could certainly prove that it does have the chipped & cracked area/part of the earlier/same window-unit in question that was so prominent or NOT.Are the rivets now spread,hammered or left alone.
The person right now in the glad-seat is actually our forum member who owns that over-painted & play-worn original pre-pro casting minus the window/glazing-unit and who owns the bragging rights of owning a piece of Mb history.
Just my take and hope not to offend anybody.
numi
numi
One cannot do much with all the monies in this world but can do much more if he strives toward contentment.
One cannot do much with all the monies in this world but can do much more if he strives toward contentment.
Re: #23 caravan with windows
Well, this caravan is the one that received the drilled out window insert (see auction listing photos or the critical one below which is from the auction). There is NO MENTION that Hardy has taken the window unit from a playworm model and inserted it in this featured model. It's a real window insert but it's also a real FAKE created by Hardy. It's critical that it be noted that he's removed a window from one model (that was a complete different variation) and placed it into this one. The text in the listing (IMHO) leads the reader to believe that the insert was installed at the factory as a test or trial. The truth is that Hardy made the model at his work bench some 55 odd years after the model left the factory.
I also have serious issues with the fabricated stories (in normal terms these are called LIES) that Hardy keeps telling collectors in casual conversation. After he bought this model he told Naji some things that contradict the truth about the fate of the original model (from which the windows were drilled out of). Then, he tells Christian another story that turns out not to be true. I guess he just lies to anyone who asks questions about what he's really doing with these models.
Hardy: FORMER respected collector & dealer. I say "former" because he's he's putting out lies to several collectors. He's creating and selling fakes and he's just like Christine and places a meaningless and untrue disclaimer in every auction. I think it's time we stop giving free advertising to him and quit mentioning and discussing his auctions. What needs to be done is place him on the caution/warning list of shady dealers.
This isn't the first rare model he's auctioned that I've had issues with. There have been others that I'm convinced were fakes. The last obvious one was an 11a with decals on the sides.
I'm also shocked by Christians comments. By his rules, it would seem OK to put genuine Lesney green wheel hubs on a field car and thus create a $1,000 model out of a $10 dollar model or to switch parts on YY's to make rare models (and so on).
I also have serious issues with the fabricated stories (in normal terms these are called LIES) that Hardy keeps telling collectors in casual conversation. After he bought this model he told Naji some things that contradict the truth about the fate of the original model (from which the windows were drilled out of). Then, he tells Christian another story that turns out not to be true. I guess he just lies to anyone who asks questions about what he's really doing with these models.
Hardy: FORMER respected collector & dealer. I say "former" because he's he's putting out lies to several collectors. He's creating and selling fakes and he's just like Christine and places a meaningless and untrue disclaimer in every auction. I think it's time we stop giving free advertising to him and quit mentioning and discussing his auctions. What needs to be done is place him on the caution/warning list of shady dealers.
This isn't the first rare model he's auctioned that I've had issues with. There have been others that I'm convinced were fakes. The last obvious one was an 11a with decals on the sides.
I'm also shocked by Christians comments. By his rules, it would seem OK to put genuine Lesney green wheel hubs on a field car and thus create a $1,000 model out of a $10 dollar model or to switch parts on YY's to make rare models (and so on).
It might be time to start my "Bucket List."
Re: #23 caravan with windows
Rivits are not spun yet - doesnt he have a freind who can spin rivits the lesney way like mr moko here?? It looks terrible with those ragged holes around the rivits. If he hasnt used a casting with the correct 1st type door hinge and sill with crimped axles then its obviously a fake made with genuine parts.It means now that his odd label variations and other odd combos of standard parts are every bit as suspicious as this item.Perhaps this thread should be a sticky??
Re: #23 caravan with windows
The original auction photos of Jason's Pre-Production glazed Caravan showed perfectly spun factory Lesney rivets holding the factory glazing in. Hardy bought that Pre-production without realizing that three other similar to it still existed, verifying that it was factory produced, not a used Toy fitted with unused glazing. He F*#$*& UP a Lesney Artifact of unbelievable historical value. Thank God the other 'originals' exist so that history is accurate on their Factory trials. What an idiotic story he has contrived to justify his misconduct. Anyone here seeing those perfectly spun inside rivets and crimped axles would know the model was a factory 'experiment', and a Holy Grail thought only to exist in a grainy factory photo taken from an unknown source. Even with it overpainted the wrong color, there was no paint on the window unit leading ANYONE with intelligence to believe the piece was also a color trial along with being the Holy Grail of Lesney models with that glaze. Look at the glaze now, appearing to be glued in by 4 spots of clear glue with no spun rivets and exaggerated factory holes in it, it turns my stomach.
Tinman is right, what Bullshit! The story related to you Christian is so unbelievable, how could you not simply have seen through it immediately and challenged his twisted ethics. A non-factory unit originally? If Hardy ever suggested that to me, I would have considered that remark an insult to MY Intelligence, not his.
Hardy has two units now listed in his store with Glazing (at different prices). His explanation of the piece is totally incorrect in his listing and is unethical enough in my humble opinion to ruin his reputation from this point forward. I think we may find that the crack in this window unit Tinman mentioned may perfectly match the one originally in Jason's Body, proving the rivets were tight, not loose as told to Naji......
A side note is the reaction of a collector in Pennsylvania I have related this story to last Summer. He refused to believe the original raping ever occurred because Hardy even dislikes replacing the treads on a Matchbox Toy because they are not 'original' then. The man puts on one face in public and then builds a fake to market at 9000 on-line without any truth in the listing at all.
Re-think your position on these points Christian, you are WAY above this absurd conduct. Tinman has stated ALL the facts above, I have little left to add. May I put out a plea for the original E Bay listing photos of Jason's model with original roof rivets and glaze to be posted here, and for it to remain on Nick's variation Site as proof that originally fitted Lesney glaze does exist everywhere but in Hardy's false excuses........A Very Pissed kwakers
Tinman is right, what Bullshit! The story related to you Christian is so unbelievable, how could you not simply have seen through it immediately and challenged his twisted ethics. A non-factory unit originally? If Hardy ever suggested that to me, I would have considered that remark an insult to MY Intelligence, not his.
Hardy has two units now listed in his store with Glazing (at different prices). His explanation of the piece is totally incorrect in his listing and is unethical enough in my humble opinion to ruin his reputation from this point forward. I think we may find that the crack in this window unit Tinman mentioned may perfectly match the one originally in Jason's Body, proving the rivets were tight, not loose as told to Naji......
A side note is the reaction of a collector in Pennsylvania I have related this story to last Summer. He refused to believe the original raping ever occurred because Hardy even dislikes replacing the treads on a Matchbox Toy because they are not 'original' then. The man puts on one face in public and then builds a fake to market at 9000 on-line without any truth in the listing at all.
Re-think your position on these points Christian, you are WAY above this absurd conduct. Tinman has stated ALL the facts above, I have little left to add. May I put out a plea for the original E Bay listing photos of Jason's model with original roof rivets and glaze to be posted here, and for it to remain on Nick's variation Site as proof that originally fitted Lesney glaze does exist everywhere but in Hardy's false excuses........A Very Pissed kwakers