6c Euclid Dump truck

[yellowfoden]

Here is another variation for consideration compliments of a fellow collector. In regards to possible twin rear wheels variations: The early releases of this variation with the white sleeves have dome shape wheels with the logs in the front and twin concaved backside on the rear. Nick's list shows only the variations with the smooth back wheels and not the non-smooth backed wheels. Here is a photo: Bill

Very good timing Bill, I was about to post this summary along with photos of the all important rear wheels, so the photo you have posted is perfect.

Here is a summary and refresher of the 6c.
The recent finding of John (jsherwood) can be confirmed given that Jason (Nearlymint) reported this back in December of 2010.
It should also be noted that Jason showed us an example with 11.3mm front wheels (with printing on bpw) and the details of this model were body 1 with tipper 2. We just need the tread count confirmed.


I know in the past there has been a school of thought that the white hydro sleeve was available to use not only across the 6c variations but on other models like the 15c Tippax or the 16c Snow Plough and Kwakers has mentioned a 51b with white hydro.
However I have personally not come across these. Nor have I seen the white hydro on anything other than the body 1 tipper 1 and body 1 tipper 3 combinations.
I believe the white hydro sleeve was discontinued before the type 2 tipper came about.

So I am going to suggest that codes below do not exist as shown on the variation table as at 10 January 2018
Nick code 2 with white hydro sleeve
Nick code 4 with white hydro sleeve
Nick code 6 with white hydro sleeve
Nick code 10 with white hydro sleeve

This model would go close to my most studied 1-75 in the past 30 years and since about 2010 I have noted over 20 white hydro sleeve 6c models owned or shown by members.

Surely there is a chance that if there is any variation other than body 1 tipper 1 or body 1 tipper 3 with white hydro sleeve it would be amongst those members.
I would love to hear if any member can provide authentic photographs that shows the white hydro-sleeve and wheel detail on other variations of body and tipper type other than those two mentioned above.(body 1 tipper1 or body 1 tipper 3)
In particular one with 12.5 x 45 smooth dome WITHOUT lug nuts and 12.5 x 45 rear wheels as currently listed.

I also believe given there are many amongst us that subscribe to the theory that if a wheel measures 12.36mm it is rounded up to 12.5mm.
Because the dome wheel with lug nuts is 12.0 x 45 and the dome wheel WITHOUT lug nuts is 12.36 x 45 I feel they need to be recorded as being 12.5 x 45. They are NOT the same size wheel or profile and should be listed as two sizes.

What has been completely overlooked and not recorded in any catalogue like Stannard, Houghton, Christian and Nick is that the white hydro 6c has the dome lug nut 12.0 x 45 paired with the 12.0 x 45 dual rear wheel with text on the outside and text on the inner face. This is also NOT the same REAR wheel as shown in so many codes and SHOULD be also be recorded correctly.
This small rear dual wheel is the big clue that this wheel combination came first and only lasted for a very short time.
So short a time in fact that I have never seen nor heard of the small size dual rear wheel fitted with black hydro sleeve.

Because the white hydro sleeve is on the model with lug nut wheels and small rear wheels it does not make sense that the black hydro sleeve with the large rear wheels should be placed ahead of the white on the variation table.
This would mean they used 12.5mm rear code 1, then 12.0mm rear code 2 then back to 12.5mm rear code 3 and so on which is highly unlikely.

In summary I feel the following changes need to be made
Dome smooth wheels (NO LUG NUTS ) be recorded as 12.5mm x 45
Dual rear wheels text both faces small 12.0mm x45
Dual rear wheels text outer face large 12.5mm x 45
Swap the first six codes with the second 6
Delete codes 2, 4, 6, and 10
Place white hydro sleeve variations ahead of black hydro sleeve
Change wheel size on the BPW regular wheel from 12.5 x 45 to 12.5 x 40 (currently effects codes 13 to 26)
Add new variations from Jason, John, Bert and Antonin.

If you would like more photos or detail please let me know.

Bert

[kwakers]

Your summary of only the Dumpers with front wheels with lug nuts being the earliest made of these is correct Burt, as is your study that the white hydro sleeves appeared only on the earliest Codes with these front wheels. I too have only found white hydro-sleeves on the type one body with the type one tipper and also on the type 1 body with the type 3 tipper. These two were the first of these Dumpers produced initially with white hydrosleeves, but then changed over to black hydrosleeves as on all other later codes.
I believe the R & D department retained a few of these white hydrosleeves for their own use because of the fact that my pre-pro 51B Trailer was probably assembled 6 months later with one of those white ones that were probably still in a drawer. Late 1963 would also be the time when a few of the 15C Tippax and the 16C Snow Plough pre-pros were assembled as well, so the white hydro-sleeve models may not have been meant to be released to the public at that later point in time. It's very interesting how these models fit in, does Jason's lighter coloured paint trial early 15C have a white Hydro-sleeve on it?
Thank You Bert for this factual breakdown on the earliest produced 6C Dumpers. Now to beg for a corrective rewrite at Nick's site rather than just leaving non-existent and out of timeline Codes there. We had tried to correct the first style front tires years ago, but maybe this time around??
Bill's right hand picture shows front tires with a much smoother tread on them but WITH a white hydro-sleeve (?) The front inners are dished in while the left ones seem to dish out toward the axle mount and have a much more distinct tread on them as shown. Are you saying there are two different front wheels with lug nuts Bill? Antonin may have shown us these two types MANY years ago, but I am not sure they both had the early lug nuts on them. Very very interesting Bill. Please Thank your fellow collector friend for these pictures. Kwakers

[GHOSTHUNTER]

''Thank You Bert for this factual breakdown on the earliest produced 6C Dumpers. Now to beg for a corrective rewrite at Nick's site rather than just leaving non-existent and out of timeline Codes there. We had tried to correct the first style front tires years ago, but maybe this time around??''

Please note Dick that all these code listing tweaks and corrections are not being forgotten and there is now a facility in place for the listings to be updated. The problem we have is keeping a record of what models/entries need to be updated as there is so much new information coming forward we don't know where to begin.

I tested the update system to a model in Nick's code listing and it worked, but the update only consisted of a minor tweak rather than a detailed shuffle around of a few models.

At this stage I do not know a way of how we can record what needs updating, as once we have left the page we are reading now, there is no way of knowing from the 'Board Index' that this particular model's listing needs an update.

Ghosthunter.

[kwakers]

Because we are reminded of ignored Posts from as early as 20010 Ghosty, "Old" casting finds and discussions of oddities and how their castings fit into the timeline in Nick's Guide have been left for dead.
"Code listing tweaks and corrections are not being forgotten"? Some have been dismissed and forgotten for 5-7 years now and may never be recorded if this Forum follows Lefora into obscurity. Thanks for the encouraging words, but I see no interest in our RW updates here, otherwise they would still be an ongoing work in progress.
It would in fact be much easier to record what does NOT need updating in the Regular Wheel listings now....... Kwakers

[DrJeep]

Because the dome wheel with lug nuts is 12.0 x 45 and the dome wheel WITHOUT lug nuts is 12.36 x 45 I feel they need to be recorded as being 12.5 x 45. They are NOT the same size wheel or profile and should be listed as two sizes.

I can't add anything to Bert's wonderfully comprehensive survey - thank you (and for your help with understanding my 6cs too). I can confirm the dome wheel with nuts at 12.0 mm - mine measure 11.7 mm.

[GHOSTHUNTER]

"Code listing tweaks and corrections are not being forgotten"?

OK, what I should have said was...

Since members with 'Mod' status can now get into the code listings, corrections and tweaks are not being forgotten.

Ghosthunter.

[Idris]

...members with 'Mod' status can now get into the code listings...

To the best of my knowledge, only Nick has access to the login details for the catalogue listings.

I still feel that updating the RW pages would be more worthwhile that creating new SF ones simply because the latter are extremely well-covered by Christian's excellent site. Why put time and effort into reinventing the (Superfast) wheel, when other things are crying out for updates?

[DrJeep]

not really a new variation, but a curiosity. The right front wheel has wheel nuts and a tread pattern, while the left is without wheel nuts and is, as Bert pointed out, actually slightly bigger too.

[yellowfoden]

not really a new variation.......

It is now….because I have the second one for confirmation

Talk about uncanny timing

A few months ago I started putting together a topic on this subject and here is how the article started

6c Euclid what are the odds

Here is one of my long term much loved models from the yellowfoden fleet of Euclids.

This model is the lucky recipient of the very last 8 lug nut disc wheel on the front and the very first smooth convex disc wheel. How cool is that for them to run out of an odd number of wheels destined to end up in my hands.

Of course this is written with the typical dry humour of an Australian, but hey it is the only one I have ever seen with odd front wheels.


Well now I must accept that my other lug nut wheel ended up on your Euclid and I have your smooth convex wheel.
Letting my imagination run a bit wild here a bit, I think both these trucks where going down the conveyer at the same time and the two ladies opposite each other swapped the free end axle wheels for some light amusement.
Brilliant that some 50 or so years later they appear together again.

Bert

[DrJeep]

Brilliant that some 50 or so years later they appear together again.

Amazing - separated on the assembly line and now reunited! I suppose there might actually have been a few dozen like this as the old wheel stock was replaced. It will be interesting to see if any others turn up as people check their collections carefully. But at the moment it's a very scarce variation indeed!