No. 30 Magirus-Deutz Crane Tan colour

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numi
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Re: No. 30 Magirus-Deutz Crane Tan colour

Post by numi »

Idris wrote:
numi wrote:Idris,as a seasoned collector with an original specimen in your collection,may i ask if u firmly believe that the Tan Magirus in question is a GENUINE LESNEY specimen or do u have your doubts?
numi
As set out in my (attempt at a) summary post, I do agree that there are areas of concern which need to be addressed and resolved one way or the other. However, I do not believe that we have reached the 'smoking gun' stage (a discussion is still taking place) and, as such, the jury should still be out.
Furthermore, as I have pointed out repeatedly, Jason could not be doing more to make the auction fair to the winning bidder and I have no doubt that he is selling in good faith. If, at the end of the day, the winning bidder lacks the knowledge to properly assess what he has bought once he has it in his hand, then more fool them for buying something they have an incomplete understanding of. In no way can that be considered Jason's fault.
Idris,with due respect know that ure not on trial here but u hadnt given me a direct answer except quote excerpts or findings from other members incl Berts.My question to u was clearly whether u believe the Tan Magirus in question is GENUINE LESNEY or do u have any doubts.
Being a seasoned collector and someone who is able to identify fakes,customs & repaints what are YOUR findings with the one in question against the one in your collection?
Numi
Last edited by numi on Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
numi

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GHOSTHUNTER
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Re: No. 30 Magirus-Deutz Crane Tan colour

Post by GHOSTHUNTER »

Can I just make it clear that no intent through this thread was aimed at Jason Rodeghier (jaskelrod) as a fraudster, we are not questing his integrety or ability to collect or judge the status of models.

It is the model in question, not you Mr Rodeghier, we are tying to judge.

Ghosthunter.
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Idris
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Re: No. 30 Magirus-Deutz Crane Tan colour

Post by Idris »

numi wrote:
Idris wrote:
numi wrote:Idris,as a seasoned collector with an original specimen in your collection,may i ask if u firmly believe that the Tan Magirus in question is a GENUINE LESNEY specimen or do u have your doubts?
numi
As set out in my (attempt at a) summary post, I do agree that there are areas of concern which need to be addressed and resolved one way or the other. However, I do not believe that we have reached the 'smoking gun' stage (a discussion is still taking place) and, as such, the jury should still be out.
Furthermore, as I have pointed out repeatedly, Jason could not be doing more to make the auction fair to the winning bidder and I have no doubt that he is selling in good faith. If, at the end of the day, the winning bidder lacks the knowledge to properly assess what he has bought once he has it in his hand, then more fool them for buying something they have an incomplete understanding of. In no way can that be considered Jason's fault.
Idris,with due respect know that ure not on trial here but u hadnt given me a direct answer except quote excerpts or findings from other members incl Berts.My question to u was clearly whether u believe the Tan Magirus in question is GENUINE LESNEY or do u have any doubts.
Being a seasoned collector,what are YOUR findings with the one in question against the one in your collection?
Numi
At the moment, for the reasons stated, I do not have a clear-cut opinion. However, the hook question represents a major area of concern for me and were I to aspire to adding this particular example of this model to my collection (which I don't), I would need to see a credible resolution of that query before finalising any deal.
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Tinman
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Re: No. 30 Magirus-Deutz Crane Tan colour

Post by Tinman »

Despite Kevin's disclaimer, it seems some "judging" is taking place. I think the model needs to be examined "in hand" by someone else for a true second opinion (and not just a photographic based opinion). Bert's comments/observations do make for interesting reading and a compelling argument.

When it comes to some of these very rare color variations (that generally trade hands for thousands of dollars), when such controversy develops, the owner should have the model paint tested. Not only would this abruptly end the controversy but it would likely increase the hammer price more than enough to cover the cost of the paint testing (and could significantly increase the final hammer price in general as all doubts would be removed). 

 A cheaper but less exacting option would be sending the model to one or more specific people and have the model examined in hand and a written opinion offered.

I myself have never owned this specific variation. Several years back, I did make an attempt to add one to my collection (one that did have some controversy about one axle end) but it went far above the $3,500 USD which was my top offer. If I had been the winner, it would have gone out for paint testing and when it left my possession, no one would have to doubt it was the real deal.
It might be time to start my "Bucket List."
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Idris
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Re: No. 30 Magirus-Deutz Crane Tan colour

Post by Idris »

Wise words as ever, Joe.
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numi
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Re: No. 30 Magirus-Deutz Crane Tan colour

Post by numi »

Idris wrote:
numi wrote:
Idris wrote: As set out in my (attempt at a) summary post, I do agree that there are areas of concern which need to be addressed and resolved one way or the other. However, I do not believe that we have reached the 'smoking gun' stage (a discussion is still taking place) and, as such, the jury should still be out.
Furthermore, as I have pointed out repeatedly, Jason could not be doing more to make the auction fair to the winning bidder and I have no doubt that he is selling in good faith. If, at the end of the day, the winning bidder lacks the knowledge to properly assess what he has bought once he has it in his hand, then more fool them for buying something they have an incomplete understanding of. In no way can that be considered Jason's fault.
Idris,with due respect know that ure not on trial here but u hadnt given me a direct answer except quote excerpts or findings from other members incl Berts.My question to u was clearly whether u believe the Tan Magirus in question is GENUINE LESNEY or do u have any doubts.
Being a seasoned collector,what are YOUR findings with the one in question against the one in your collection?
Numi
Idris,even without going into the design & structural dynamics of this specimen in question are u able to tell whether its a post-factory REPAINTED specimen or GENUINE LESNEY factory spray-painted specimen as compared with the paint shades of your own specimen or even mine for that matter?
Sorry about us going back & forth but maybe with your final answer this time around i might understand more clearly what uve been trying to say all along!
numi

At the moment, for the reasons stated, I do not have a clear-cut opinion. However, the hook question represents a major area of concern for me and were I to aspire to adding this particular example of this model to my collection (which I don't), I would need to see a credible resolution of that query before finalising any deal.
Idris,even without going into the design & structural dynamics of this specimen in question are u able to tell whether its a post-factory REPAINTED specimen or GENUINE LESNEY factory spray-painted specimen as compared with the paint shades of your own specimen or even mine for that matter?
Sorry about us going back & forth but maybe with your final answer this time around i might understand more clearly what uve been trying to say all along!
numi
numi

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nearlymint
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Re: No. 30 Magirus-Deutz Crane Tan colour

Post by nearlymint »

I really do not understand, after just checking and confirming what Bert has said about the hook there really cannot be any other answer.
The model in question has a later hook, who ever made this one can now make one with the right hook.
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jaskelrod
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Re: No. 30 Magirus-Deutz Crane Tan colour

Post by jaskelrod »

Hello. I have both answers and questions, and I will post them in that order.

Regarding the black paint on the baseplate:

1. Magnification shows that the paint wear on the raised lettering is from wear, not thin paint, which is further supported by wear to other areas of the black baseplate, including both of the rounded flanges that hold the front axle (a typical place of wear on baseplates), and other areas of the base besides the letters.

2. Quality forgeries are not done by novices. The correct consistency and gloss of black baseplate paint is likely an area where forgers begin their practice because black baseplates (especially gloss) are easy to conceal. If a forger attempts to circulate a highly-desired and highly-valued model such as a tan pre-production version of the ‘Magirus-Deutz Crane,’ that person needs to pay painstaking attention to the details of the dishonest work. If the work of an experienced forger is exposed, it is probably reasonable to assume that his error would not be in miscalculating the consistency of gloss black baseplate paint.

3. I do not think that the wear to the letters on the black baseplate is inconsistent with the imperfections on the rest of this model. I think that the (perhaps reasonable) impression is made because the missing paint on “CRANE TRUCK MAGIRUS-DEUTZ” stands out considerably next to the perfect paint of “MADE IN ENGLAND BY LESNEY.” The lack of wear of the latter is not notable because the words are recessed so far into the casting.

Regarding the broad tow hook:

1. A comment is posted that says, “On over 19 other tan versions recorded the hook is the thin type, identified easily because of the gap between the ropes.” Where can a collector access this ‘record’ of 19 other versions of the tan M-D crane? If it is posted, please direct me (or us) to it. On page 3, a member writes,
“Reading the discussion concerning details, i'm waiting for pictures off other collectors who has such a model to compare.”
This is a good point. If there is a centralized documented archive of the known tan cranes, wouldn't this bear more weight than a flurry of opinions? If such an archive exists, please present it or direct us to it so we can do our own evaluations and reduce the bickering. I am not disputing that the original tan pre-production models of the No. 30 ‘Magirus-Deutz Crane’ had the ‘thin type’ hook, I just want to see photos, or know that the source of that information is more than a few here on this forum (no disrespect intended).

2. If this tow hook is inconsistent with those of the genuine pre-production models, then this model would have needed to have been disassembled---either 1) at the rivet that attaches the hook to the jib, or 2) at the rivet that connects the jib to the body.
The tow hook rivet is fine for two reasons: 1. this rivet shows no indication of tampering, and 2. if it is true that the tan crane was made with only ‘thin’ hooks, why would someone bother to disassemble it?
The rivet that connects the orange jib to the body is fine because of the lack of disturbance to the head of the front rivet, and to the paint of the front rivet. And until I see enough tan cranes to show otherwise, I can make an equally compelling contention (which I do not) that the 1st tan crane shown on page 2 is questionable because:
a. the head of the front tan rivet appears thin, which is a hallmark of disassemblers,
b. the high amount of ‘disturbance’ to the front (tan) rivet, which appears ‘splintered’ could have taken place during reassembly,
c. there are speckles of orange paint visible behind the rear axle, and in the shaded area below the top, rear wheel, which is concerning to me.

QUESTIONS:
1. What is the process for authenticating a 'rare', 'uncommon' or high-value Matchbox model?
2. What source(s) does the VBD accept and recommend for authenticating Matchbox models?
3. What basis or source is being used when offering details for the tan Magirus-Deutz crane? I am not suggesting that it is not being used, I just want to know what it is.

Evaluating the authenticity of high-value models (including mine) is a good practice that needs to continue. When evaluating the authenticity of my cars, do so knowing that although I have only been part of the VBD forum for 3 years, I have been buying, selling and trading Matchbox cars for 40 years---because I love Matchbox.

If my integrity needs to be questioned, please do so by private message.

Respectfully,
Jason
Last edited by jaskelrod on Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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nearlymint
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Re: No. 30 Magirus-Deutz Crane Tan colour

Post by nearlymint »

The model has a later hook, this is way off the timeline for this model.
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numi
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Re: No. 30 Magirus-Deutz Crane Tan colour

Post by numi »

Post deleted by Idris.
numi

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