Being a non-collector of the Cadillac I can not make a qualified comment, but in this instance I believe the Cream is not intended as an undercoat, it's just that the Cream is applied first to capture the roof, then the body colour is applied with the roof masked under a cover or roof cap.
I would see the Two models in the last picture as Grey and pale Lilac, that's what's coming across on my VAIO screen.
Ghosthunter.
Worth 50p each?
Re: Worth 50p each?
You're right, of course: that is how they were painted, and I should have said base coat. I'm suggesting that the cream base coat might affect the appearance of the top coat of lilac. I'm sure this car was intended to be lilac, but appears grey compared to a lilac car. Did it look grey when it was new? Probably not - as Idris says, it's most likely that it's faded over the last 50 years. I don't think this would be at all obvious if I didn't have the one that's definitely silver-grey, which came from a toy fair last year - only £5 because its back wheels have fallen off.
This is the picture I posted a couple of days ago - what colour would you say it was from this? I certainly wouldn't want to pay much for a grey Cadillac based on photographs alone!
This is the picture I posted a couple of days ago - what colour would you say it was from this? I certainly wouldn't want to pay much for a grey Cadillac based on photographs alone!
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GHOSTHUNTER
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Re: Worth 50p each?
lilac and ?...lilac!
Now, if the model on the right were in pristine blister packaging, in that shade of colour, I would still see it as pale Lilac. The fact that we know so many shades of one colour can and do exist (long production runs with paint supplied from at least Two sources), puts this model in safe territory. Now that it has been through what looks like many Years of playtime use and has been exposed to everyday elements, the shade of Lilac had to suffer and again, we know Lilacs can fade to a Silver-Greyish effect which sadly makes many of them appear to be an example of the Grey version when seen in isolation.
It's good that you have enough examples to show models side by side for comparison purposes
Having said all the above, is there a chance a Silver-Grey Cadillac, subjected to the same conditions as the model on the right, could be giving the effect of a pale Lilac!
Ghosthunter.
Now, if the model on the right were in pristine blister packaging, in that shade of colour, I would still see it as pale Lilac. The fact that we know so many shades of one colour can and do exist (long production runs with paint supplied from at least Two sources), puts this model in safe territory. Now that it has been through what looks like many Years of playtime use and has been exposed to everyday elements, the shade of Lilac had to suffer and again, we know Lilacs can fade to a Silver-Greyish effect which sadly makes many of them appear to be an example of the Grey version when seen in isolation.
It's good that you have enough examples to show models side by side for comparison purposes
Having said all the above, is there a chance a Silver-Grey Cadillac, subjected to the same conditions as the model on the right, could be giving the effect of a pale Lilac!
Ghosthunter.
Re: Worth 50p each?
Interesting - to me, the car looks grey in the hand and in the photographs. And it's worth remembering I started this because Kurt - on seeing the very same picture contrasting it with the lilac car - asked if it was brown.
Anyway, I hope we can all agree that the top of the car is less lilac than the remains of the paint under the bumpers. I don't think we should dismiss out of hand the role the undercoat / base coat may play in changing the appearance of the lilac paint. The role of the undercoat is acknowledged in the 32a XK140: "the first red was painted on bodies that had previously been painted white or had a white undercoat giving the finished model a bright orangy red finish to the paint. The later issues had the paint put directly onto unprimed bodies which gives them a much duller and darker red..." I've recently shown the same effect on the 67b VW 1600.
More relevant, though, because it's painted in exactly the same way, is this discussion of different shades of green on the 31b Ford Fairlane:
Having slept on it, I've realised that the colour of the metallic green top coat is inevitably influenced by the colour of the undercoat. If that undercoat were cream instead of pink, would that be enough to explain the observed difference in the metallic greens?
Just to be completely clear, I've observed that the cream undercoat / base coat on this strange greyish Cadillac is thicker (and perhaps creamier?) than on those that maintain their lilac colour even when they are very battered and worn. The question I'm posing is whether this plays some part in making the car appear less lilac. The greyish car has a very even colour on the top, but retains lilac underneath where there is no cream base coat and the lilac paint was applied directly onto the casting. Remember I'm certain that the greyish Cadillac is merely interesting, not valuable or rare. It cost me effectively nothing and I only started this in response to Kurt's question of whether it's the rare brown colour (it's not!).
I'm also sure that an unscrupulous seller could readily remove the last traces of lilac from the base and sell it as the rare grey-silver version. I'm not going to do this.
Anyway, I hope we can all agree that the top of the car is less lilac than the remains of the paint under the bumpers. I don't think we should dismiss out of hand the role the undercoat / base coat may play in changing the appearance of the lilac paint. The role of the undercoat is acknowledged in the 32a XK140: "the first red was painted on bodies that had previously been painted white or had a white undercoat giving the finished model a bright orangy red finish to the paint. The later issues had the paint put directly onto unprimed bodies which gives them a much duller and darker red..." I've recently shown the same effect on the 67b VW 1600.
More relevant, though, because it's painted in exactly the same way, is this discussion of different shades of green on the 31b Ford Fairlane:
Having slept on it, I've realised that the colour of the metallic green top coat is inevitably influenced by the colour of the undercoat. If that undercoat were cream instead of pink, would that be enough to explain the observed difference in the metallic greens?
Just to be completely clear, I've observed that the cream undercoat / base coat on this strange greyish Cadillac is thicker (and perhaps creamier?) than on those that maintain their lilac colour even when they are very battered and worn. The question I'm posing is whether this plays some part in making the car appear less lilac. The greyish car has a very even colour on the top, but retains lilac underneath where there is no cream base coat and the lilac paint was applied directly onto the casting. Remember I'm certain that the greyish Cadillac is merely interesting, not valuable or rare. It cost me effectively nothing and I only started this in response to Kurt's question of whether it's the rare brown colour (it's not!).
I'm also sure that an unscrupulous seller could readily remove the last traces of lilac from the base and sell it as the rare grey-silver version. I'm not going to do this.
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GHOSTHUNTER
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Re: Worth 50p each?
Yes certainly, metallic paints can and have often been proven to have been changed regards the shade because of an undercoat. I don't think Lesney were totally aware of this science where they would deliberately play with undercoat and topcoat colours for any desired effect, it's just the way things have happened during development and production changes to models that we, as collectors, are now discovering by certain models surfacing within the collecting community.
Observing the paint shades underneath and inside of models can throw up a whole new set of questions with answers hopefuly relating to the colours seen on models on the outside...
Ghosthunter.
Observing the paint shades underneath and inside of models can throw up a whole new set of questions with answers hopefuly relating to the colours seen on models on the outside...
Ghosthunter.
Re: Worth 50p each?
Thanks, Ghosthunter - those are really good points. There are different base coat and metallic coat shades from different batches of paint, different interactions between the two coats, and different fading rates and characteristics that at least partially dependent on environmental conditions. I guess we'll never know exactly why some lilac cars fade and some don't. It's even more confusing because some versions of faded lilac approach the real silver-grey colour. I'm even starting to wonder if my "genuine" silver-grey Cadillac is real or faded (on balance, I still think real). I don't think I'd ever buy another silver-grey Cadillac without seeing it in daylight!
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GHOSTHUNTER
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Re: Worth 50p each?
...seeing it in Daylight alongside another couple of models you just happen to have with you for a good comparison!
Ghosthunter.
Ghosthunter.
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MatchboxFreak
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Re: Worth 50p each?
Agreed! Never trust subtle colors on a monitor!DrJeep wrote:...... I don't think I'd ever buy another silver-grey Cadillac without seeing it in daylight!
Happy hunting!
Kurt
Kurt