17a Removals Van

[Tinman]

There does seem to be a timeline for 8.5 mm wheels that are cast with the 17. Oddly enough, that timeline would appear to come (unless more discoveries are made) late in the 17a model's time line. Since 8.5 mm wheels exist with and without a 17 cast and since they did find their way onto 17a models, (as per Hugh's original question) I we should not assume and cannot use the sizes as way to note models with or without numbers on the wheels.

[ChFalkensteiner]

One more thing which is relevant to the actual topic of this thread:

I would like to see a comparison picture of two metal wheels side by side which have different diameters and both have the number 17 cast.

As all the 17a examples in my collection have unnumbered wheels, and all the numbered metal wheels on my 17b examples have the larger diameter, I cannot provide such a comparison picture myself.

If anybody could provide such a comparison picture, that would be helpful as a final proof that differently sized wheels with #17 cast do exist. If that is a proven fact, it should result in additions to the catalogue listings of 17a and 17b.

[Dave R]

The NAMC’s “Catalog of all Series Matchbox Models” (second edition) lists a model as variation code 17-1C which is green with stencilled lettering. Unfortunately, no further details are provided. Has any Member anything similar?

I have two examples of this Bedford van that may be what was described as "stencilled lettering." Many years ago I was puzzled by why the only green van I owned (at that time) had no clear(ish) rectangular decal film around the lettering, just the letters themselves on the sides. Since the model is not mint, I had almost convinced myself that the decal film had somehow "evaporated" over the years, leaving just the lettering, but then at a local toy show i found another the same. Both models are used, not mint, but in pretty good condition, with most of the lettering intact. After looking closely at them back then, my best guess is that the lettering was screen-printed directly onto the sides of the vans — but I could be wrong! According to my notes in my Stannard catalog, these models would probably be coded 17a6 and 17a8 (if they had regular decals); typical mid-run models with flat-head axles, one of each type of axle brace, middling amount of infill between cab and van body.

[Idris]

The NAMC’s “Catalog of all Series Matchbox Models” (second edition) lists a model as variation code 17-1C which is green with stencilled lettering. Unfortunately, no further details are provided. Has any Member anything similar?

I have two examples of this Bedford van that may be what was described as "stencilled lettering.

Any chance of a photograph?

[GHOSTHUNTER]

I have many Years experience of screen printing so if some good clear, sharp pictures can be posted (real close up of the edges of the letters will help), I will try and confirm the printing process for you, subject to my current personal issues.

Ghosthunter.

[Tinman]

I've never seen any application to a 17a (or b) that was anything other than a decal.

However, I've long suspected that the early decals were in the small group of solvent applied decals. My reasoning behind this line of thought would explain why so many of them turn gummy and badly discolored (yet still have tight edges).

I've also seen many replacement decals on the early vans due to problems associated with the original decals. It's entirely possible someone applied dry transfers in place of missing or damaged decals.

[Idris]

I've never seen any application to a 17a (or b) that was anything other than a decal.

However, I've long suspected that the early decals were in the small group of solvent applied decals. My reasoning behind this line of thought would explain why so many of them turn gummy and badly discolored (yet still have tight edges).

I've also seen many replacement decals on the early vans due to problems associated with the original decals. It's entirely possible someone applied dry transfers in place of missing or damaged decals.

I too think that factory-applied stencilled lettering is unlikely. After all, at the time, Lesney was not doing anything even remotely similar to any other model. (Mask spraying of trim was still years away.) However, we should not forget the initial releases of the A2a Car Transporter with (probably) rubber-stamping on the sides of the trailer. If these "stencilled" models do appear to be genuine (and that's a big if in my book), then it may well turn out that we are looking at stamped rather than stencilled text.

[Tinman]

I too think that factory-applied stencilled lettering is unlikely. After all, at the time, Lesney was not doing anything even remotely similar to any other model. (Mask spraying of trim was still years away.) However, we should not forget the initial releases of the A2a Car Transporter with (probably) rubber-stamping on the sides of the trailer. If these "stencilled" models do appear to be genuine (and that's a big if in my book), then it may well turn out that we are looking at stamped rather than stencilled text.

I too was thinking about the so called "stamped" lettering on the accessory pack transporter. If such an variation turns up and can be verified, there is one possible reason it could exist. The 17a came out before the accessory pack transporter. The first decals on the 17s may have been (as I suspect) solvent applied. Since Lesney did want to get rid of the solvent applied decals (on all models), it could be possible they experimented with stamping "Matchbox Removals Service" before deciding to make the switch to water slide decals. This switch would have happened after burgundy and blue model colors were switched to green. However, that all a big "what if" speculation until some models with stamped sides can be proven to exist.

[Dave R]

Interesting ideas. I agree that however the lettering on these vans was done, it doesn't particularly make sense, except perhaps as some sort of experiment or trial run. Obviously Lesney used decals successfully on the blue and maroon versions of the 17a van, as well as the later green ones, so why would they try something else in the middle of the model's life? I will do what I can to provide photos, and I don't mean to keep you guys in suspense, but unfortunately most of my collection does not live with me, so I have to go dig them out first, and then get my wife or son to see if they can take photos (since I'm no photographer), and none of that will happen until next week at the earliest.

[Idris]

Interesting ideas. I agree that however the lettering on these vans was done, it doesn't particularly make sense, except perhaps as some sort of experiment or trial run. Obviously Lesney used decals successfully on the blue and maroon versions of the 17a van, as well as the later green ones, so why would they try something else in the middle of the model's life?

The thrust of joe's (Tinman's) idea is that the stencilled/stamped text represents an interim step between the early solvent-based decals, which Jack Odell described as making the factory a bl**dy mess (or words to that effect), and the later water-slide decals which were used until the widespread introduction of labels in the 1960s. Two possible reasons for this spring to mind: i) an stop-gap measure,(possibly) based on the A2a trailer lettering process, caused by running out of solvent-based decals before stocks of the new water-slide decals had arrived, or ii) a failed alternative to decals.