17a Removals Van

[Idris]

The NAMC’s “Catalog of all Series Matchbox Models” (second edition) lists a model as variation code 17-1C which is green with stencilled lettering. Unfortunately, no further details are provided. Has any Member anything similar?
The AIM's “1-75 Series Regular Wheels” catalogue (second printing, 1983) lists a plausible crossover as variation 17-1d: green, silver trim, MW, c/a, outlined white-lettered decal. This appears to be analogous to Nick's variation code 3 with GPW and so would fit into the table as the new variation code 3.
Stannard does not list any variations not already catalogued by Nick.
Houghton has variation 17a-5 matching Nick's variation code 6 (maroon, 8.5 mm MW, f/h, c/a, straight axle platform, body line, infill to the left side, with window), but with silver trim instead of gold. However, he does not list the gold-trimmed variation. Is there a typo in Nick's table (which agrees with Stannard) or in Houghton's, or do both variations exist? (U.K. Matchbox makes mention of this particular casting variation in maroon, but frustratingly does not provide trim details.)
U.K. Matchbox examined the model in vol. 1 no. 6 (Aug. '77) p90, and then again in vol. 6 no. 1 (Apr. '82) p22, with follow-ups in vol. 6 no. 2 (Jun. '82) p64, vol. 6 no. 3 (Aug. '82) p84, and vol. 6 no. 5 (Dec. '82) p186. In the volume 1 review, the existence of an MW/outlined decal variation appears to be confirmed, but in volume 6, outlined decals are only listed with GPW (as Nick's variation code 3).

One question: As with 17b, Nick's listing has both 8.5 and 9 mm diameter MW. Do these actually reflect numbered and unnumbered wheels respectively?

[kwakers]

Mick Stannard does note in his Bible that "The final variation had slightly larger wheels with number 17 cast on, as fitted to 17B". His guide seems to verify your idea and reasoning Hugh, I must search for one of those 17As with numbered wheels for our own collection. With a dozen different Mint 17A &B Removals Vans lined up on a shelf you tend to fall asleep and never think of examining these at shows for codes you are still missing. These display as duplicates with that many lined up......
My listing on this 17A is showing I have a straight axle platform with body infill on left side and above the cab which is possibly missing from Nick's codes as well as Stannard's. I also show his variation 9 with an outlined decal on it. I will have to inspect that one carefully to determine whether it came from the factory that way. kwakers

[Tinman]

The 8.5 wheel had 17 cast on one side. To the best of my memory, I do not recall ever seeing a 9 mm metal wheel with a 17 cast on the wheel. The 9 mm metal wheel was short lived on this model and quickly gave way to the plastic wheel. By the time the switch was made from 8.5 mm metal to 9 mm metal wheel, that wheel was being shared across other models so it had no numbers cast on the wheel.

Wheel numbering of metal wheels ended as the line grew and wheels were shared across models. For anyone reading that might not know, the tool/molds/dies were originally created to cast 4 wheels along with the main casting. Numbers were cast on the wheels to help keep them together with the correct model, hence the reason for the numbers on the wheels.

As the product line grew, wheel sharing (anytime that was possible) made more sense. Wheels could be cast in bulk and shared across a range of models. Problems did occur in the days when all wheels were numbered. Shortages in one specific model's wheels resulted in numbered wheels for model X showing up on model Y.

[ChFalkensteiner]

The 8.5 wheel had 17 cast on one side. To the best of my memory, I do not recall ever seeing a 9 mm metal wheel with a 17 cast on the wheel. The 9 mm metal wheel was short lived on this model and quickly gave way to the plastic wheel. By the time the switch was made from 8.5 mm metal to 9 mm metal wheel, that wheel was being shared across other models so it had no numbers cast on the wheel.

Wheel numbering of metal wheels ended as the line grew and wheels were shared across models. For anyone reading that might not know, the tool/molds/dies were originally created to cast 4 wheels along with the main casting. Numbers were cast on the wheels to help keep them together with the correct model, hence the reason for the numbers on the wheels.

As the product line grew, wheel sharing (anytime that was possible) made more sense. Wheels could be cast in bulk and shared across a range of models. Problems did occur in the days when all wheels were numbered. Shortages in one specific model's wheels resulted in numbered wheels for model X showing up on model Y.

I have to say that to my knowledge the opposite is true.

The earliest models had no numbers cast on their wheels, which includes the original issues of 17a. The first model issued with a number cast on its wheels was the 24a Weatherill (interestingly featuring the number 23 rather than 24). Nearly all metal wheel models introduced from then onward up to the 56a London Trolleybus had numbers cast on their wheels. Metal wheels were never intended to be shared between models; if that happened, then it did so by accident.

The deliberate sharing of wheels between models only started with the introduction of plastic wheels.

Therefore Stannard's statement about the later, larger wheels (which were intended for 17b) having the number 17 cast is correct. The earlier, smaller wheels which are the ones normally found on 17a (and sometimes, rarely, also found on early issues of 17b) have no number cast.

[Tinman]

I rarely find myself in disagreement with Christian, but this would be one case. Yes, several early models don't have numbers cast on the wheels. My best conclusion has been that as the range grew, wheel numbering was to prevent mix-ups and confusion.

However, wheel sharing with metal wheels did happen and it's not uncommon to find the wrong number metal wheels on a different model. When plastic wheels were phased in, this practice became the rule instead of something done as needed.

The smaller metal wheels on the number 17 did have the "17" cast on them and I'm looking at a model with the smaller wheels (with cast number) as I type. In my bins of salvaged spares, I have some of the smaller wheels without numbers and some with 17 cast.

I've also a Bedford Removals van with the larger wheels with no number cast on the wheels. My comments are not intended to be an in depth overview of metal wheel production and use but more generalized and directed to the model at hand (17a/b Bedford Removals van). Since the number 17 can be found cast on the smaller and larger wheels no conclusion can be drawn about the question in the last sentence of post 1.

Edit. Just to avoid confusion, I am calling the 8.5 mm wheel the smaller wheel and the 9 mm wheel as the larger wheel.

[ChFalkensteiner]

Well, I can definitely confirm that in my own collection I have ten examples of 17a, all with the smaller diameter wheels with no numbers cast. Among my 17b examples there are only two with metal wheels, both with the larger diameter wheels with the number 17 cast.

I can also confirm that for several years I have been actively searching for the listed crossover variations, i.e. 17a with numbered wheels and 17b with unnumbered metal wheels, but so far in vain.

Everybody who reads this is invited to check her or his models to verify this. A nice way to start the new year!

[Tinman]

I need to get a new memory card for my camera. As soon as I do I'll put an 8.5 wheel with 17 cast in the caliper and take a photo.

[kerbside]

! have an 8.5 metal wheel with the #17 cast on it, the only trouble is it is on a 17b model. I have 7 17a models but none have the # 17 cast on the wheels.





George T.

[Diecast]

One question: As with 17b, Nick's listing has both 8.5 and 9 mm diameter MW. Do these actually reflect numbered and unnumbered wheels respectively?

I can confirm the existence of a model 17a with MW ø8,5mm and ø9mm. The metal wheels ø8,5mm are unnumbered and MW ø9mm have the Nr. "17" (according precise measurement MW ø9,0x18 have ø8,71 - 8,90mm).
Antonin

[ChFalkensteiner]

! have an 8.5 metal wheel with the #17 cast on it, the only trouble is it is on a 17b model. I have 7 17a models but none have the # 17 cast on the wheels.

Thanks for checking and for the pictures George! Out of curiosity, does this (smaller size) apply to just the one wheel or to all four wheels on your model? In your picture it seems as if the other three wheels are larger, but I am not sure about this.

If there are indeed smaller wheels with #17 cast, then IMHO these should constitute additional variations, perhaps for both 17a and 17b, notwithstanding the probability of wheel mixes.

This subject may also lead to the need for more research on other models, particularly 2a to 23a, as late issues of some of those may also exist with numbered wheels (though as yet I am not aware of any, as far as I can remember without doing a complete survey).

Side note: I do not care so much about the wheel diameters on these models, as the difference is so small that without direct side-by-side comparison and/or exact measurements it is difficult to tell them apart. I therefore cannot and do not actively search for diameter differences on these wheels. But I can and do actively search for wheels without or with cast numbers on 17a and 17b.