Very rare pre pro 75 thunderbird

[kwakers]

What sharp eyes you have lad!! You are absolutely right on the scag appearing white on the left, making this one a factory white on white Boat WITH documentation!! How Very interesting.
Welcome to our Forum Batterseaboy, what a Great T Bird casting you have shown us here . Do you perhaps remember the location where you were able to purchase this casting so many years ago now??
I am curious because some elderly collector may be able to put a name on that Seller because of his factory ties. Cheers! Kwakers

[Batterseaboy]

Yes, kwakers it was Enfield pageant in 83, that pic of the boat may have another colour?. you can not see it in the film.

[kwakers]

Being I am a Yank that has never been to the U.K., I guess I will not be able to shed any light on your mystery Seller's identity at all. BUT, with that knowledge perhaps someone here might know of that Seller because 1983 is fairly "recent" in the world of Lesney Regular Wheel collecting. (Any ideas from veteran lurkers or members will be appreciated here). Such a Seller obviously had a tie to someone in the Lesney R&D department or actually worked there themselves in some capacity, so perhaps we may get some ideas as to who he may have been.
The earlier comparison photos of the raised roof of your T Bird, (which was replaced in May of 1965 by the Ferrari) and the soon to be released in July of 1965 number 56B Fiat roof rack raised casting show so similar of a raised outline, the two have to be connected in some way. We may never know for sure, but the use of an obsolete body die as on the T Bird to develop a "new" plastic detachable rack for the new Fiat seems plausible to me, but a lot of extra work for nothing (Unless done by an apprentice earlier in 1965 as a prototype design to be used on a later more suitable auto). I have not looked back on Nick's comment, only someone's recent response to it that may or may not explain this historic find. The rack would have no place on a 1959 $20,000 U.S. Luxury Car like the T Bird, but I like the idea of a convertible which would have been a much better casting for Lesney than this sedan in 1960 when it was introduced. (I am partial because an Uncle of mine had taken me for rides when his was brand new in 1959, and I have owned one since 1979). Cheers! Kwakers

[kwakers]

Now that I have read all 18 pages of the Post on your fantastic 75A Thunderbird casting Milton, I will be just a little bit embarrassed at my off the cuff with no outside influence comments I just made above without reading anything but the first two and the last page on it........
1. The mention of an apprentice involved really upset you, so let us call the man responsible for your roof modification an expert tool and die maker. You are right, the final product is perfect with NO Flaws. With that said, I still see an obsolete die being experimented with as my personal HONEST first opinion, also my second thought since reading all the Forum comments pertaining to it. But, I am still open minded. I have to disagree with Nick's idea that Lesney knew everything about casting flow by 1965. Lesney knew nothing more than the particular worker whose project it was to initiate a new design. As with any company, knowledge AND skills were lost when an employee retired.
2. As for Antonin's (Our in-house Lesney casting expert who has made timelines more precise than they ever have been) picture of the earliest style inner castings on this T Bird, note the absence of the raised rear DASH casting that is just under the windshield frame on yours. If his pen markings were removed, you could more clearly see the flat area on his where your later "dash" brace is on your casting. I think you may have asked for clarification of that picture without his pen marks? I hope that explains his comparison and by that I assume the last BPW T Birds have your late "Dash" brace.
3. As for a precedent for odd shop practices at Lesney R&D you asked for, here goes: I had read about two different early pre-pro 48A Boat Trailers since the 1971 NAMC and 1976 AIM Matchbox Guides were written. After 45 years I now own one of those "pre-pro" Trailers!
When it arrived I was shocked to find that this Trailer not only had NO Boat securing stud as it had been described as not having in 1971, but it had the later triangular axle braces on this Trailer casting! The round casting under the missing pin (NOT BROKEN OFF) is much larger, tapered, and has been professionally re-tooled at Lesney for some unknown reason just as your T Bird's roof was done. WHY?? It is not a pre-pro because of the later axle braces on it, but it has factory crimped axles with M/W on it. This useless Trailer might have been an R & D experiment for a midlife model update, but unlike your T Bird, was painted and completed. Lesney Historical artifacts sometimes defy logical explanations. Cheers! Kwakers

[Batterseaboy]

Hi kwakers
I think there is more to it than a practice piece, I was reading a memo from M B stating the LS and JOD could change
Specs at any time, I am researching thunderbirds sold in Britain in the early sixties to see if any have roof racks, I am combing any info I can find.

[kwakers]

I am not familiar with the terms LS or JOD, but we know how many minor Regular Wheel casting changes we have updated to Nick's listings that are visible, but were missed by the detailist Mike Stannard while compiling his 1985 Matchbox Guide.
I believe you are spot-on with suggesting Bronner may have influenced the decision to add updated Gift Sets in 1965 such as the G3 Vacation Set you have mentioned earlier, the older Gift Sets needed updating with "Fresh" models by that time. On our side The catalog stores like Sears, JC Penny and Montgomery/ Jefferson Ward did well during the Holidays with Lesney Gift Set sales, so the demand was there for Bronner to answer with fresh merchandise to import and distribute to them on the East Coast.
I can't argue with your doing some added research on the T Birds imported into the U.K. having U.K. luggage racks fitted to them, so I will look through some U.S. literature on the 1958-1960 models and any option that Ford may have offered for those cars.
I love your display case full of Lesneys, it is a type we only saw while shopping in Canada. Bronner offered U.K. wooden cases VERY early on in the sixties, but the free ones we saw in the U.S. stores were his own cardboard types which began in the mid fifties. I would place that T Bird in the #75 place if it were mine........ Kwakers

[kwakers]

OOPS! I forgot to add that we are not considering or calling your model a "Practice Piece" by any stretch of the imagination. Those of us who see the similar development of the Fiat roof rack on your T Bird roof are of the opinion that your casting may explain a hereto unknown R&D method used on it that has gone unrecorded. It is a Rare "Development Piece" in our minds, the only such RW example ever to be shown on Nick's Forum. Vectis has sold many pre-pros and colour trials over the years, but nothing as notable as your modified T Bird casting. Kwakers

[Idris]

I agree with Kwakers. Whatever it is, it is in a category all of its own.

[Batterseaboy]

Leslie Smith / Jack ODell
My abbreviated terms apologies if wrongly used.

What I suppose I am thinking is, of course Lesney were flying,business wise in the early sixties. Is could some one have looked at say Hot rod or Rod and Custom seen what was around In the States metallic paint,chrome engines,big wheels
And tried to influence R&D, I loved Matchbox in the sixties, but there was a shift midway where pop culture, started to act upon design, Did they not see the Hotwheel revolution which ultimately decimated the market for them,I find it fascinating that a world leading company can not see the threat to the market that they dominate. It eludes in the post about news articles just read the dates and titles to each piece.
No it is a real shame that Lesney was such a great company, made such a great product and burned brightly for such a short period of time, Of course super fast was catch up and although some nice stuff appeared the damage was done.
I understand the ethos of the Matchbox collector the production updates and alterations, colour variations it is a great hobby l am just fascinated at the rise and fall of the brand, who was whispering in Les smiths ear, why with a 150 strong R&D things weren't seen.....

[Batterseaboy]

I think the seller at Enfield pageant may have been Jack ODell, I have been looking at pictures of him and they do bear a resemblance to the man that I bought the Tbird from, he was an Enfield local and I sort of remember they man saying he was local, has any of his collection come out of the wood works since he passed.