Would the real Bif rivet please stand up?

[yellowfoden]

Hello Nick and all,

The term bif (biff) rivet is well known amongst Lesney collectors on the 6b Euclid Tipper but there is a twist, it is actually not a bif or biff rivet.

This discussion is to see if Nick, Christian, John and other collectors are open to a change.

Many matchbox catalogues, collectors and sellers have often used term Bif (biff) rivet to describe the pin on the tipper of the ever popular 6b Euclid or the rivet on the early 30b crane truck variations securing the hook.(Nicks code 1-7). It is a cool sounding name.
However the term bif rivet has been used incorrectly with these and other models when it comes to Lesney Matchbox.
Bif comes from the word bifurcated which means to divide into two, like a river branching or a snakes tongue.
A Bif rivet is in sense a split rivet and used in leather work for belts, back packs, that is - to hold soft materials together etc. There are three or more methods used to secure a bif rivet, the best way is with a special tool( bif rivet setter).

The correct name for the rivets (referred to as bif or biff by some) used on Lesney models is a semi tubular rivet.
The rivets are used on the 2b Dumper, the front wheel on some 4c Triumph, 6b Euclid tipper and 30b Magirus crane hook, 64a Scammell hook along with some Major packs like M8 guy Car trailer pivot or M4a Ruston Bucyrus Power Shovel Taylor Woodrow boom pin as well as others.
The shank is solid but the end is hollow and it is the end which is flared, cut punched or flattened over after assembly to secure the fitting.

Attached are some images and drawings of the true bif as in split pin followed by the semi hollow rivet or semi tubular rivet as used on Lesney diecast with models mentioned above.

The 1-75 example that resembles a Bif (split) rivet in a diecast application is on the spare wheel on the 19a MG but that is part of spare wheel casting. Another place a true Bif rivet has been used within Lesney Matchbox is in the fastening of some carry cases on the corners made in the UK.

The early catalogues (AIM for example ) do not use the term bif or Biff when describing the 6b tipper pin and the earliest I could find in other catalogues was from Michael Stannard. It would seem other catalogues, collectors and sellers have then followed this information.

My references are machinery handbooks that pre date Lesney through to 2013. I have not been able to find any reference where Michael may have first got his bif/biff rivet term from. Can any member help here please?
My library of engineering, machinery, welding and fastener books shed no light on a tubular rivet like that used on the 6b tipper pivot pin ever referred to as a Bif rivet.

Whilst the pin used on the 2b,4c, 6b, 30b, 64a, M4b, M8b etc are all semi tubular rivet M J Stannard only uses the term Bif on the 2b , 6b, 64a whereas on the 30b uses flat headed pin with spread end description. He does not show any reference to a rivet like the semi tubular rivet on the 4c. This was catalogued post 1985, see reference tinman, schenk and zBret in Nick's variation pages.
I am sure we collectors like the familiar term “bif rivet” but is it possible that the term “semi hollow tubular rivet” or “semi tubular rivet” be used in the future given it is the same type of fastener that is used across the Lesney range and as more models in other ranges are catalogued this is a chance to standardise.

AIM catalogue use the term flat end rivet for 6b but does not go down to the same level of detail on 2b,4c,30b or 64a and yet all are the same fastener. Technically flat head is also incorrect because the rivets have a curved or radius head as Michael has shown in his drawings. Some would be truss head or oval head and on the major packs and kings they are mushroom head or button head.

Here are some models that use the semi tubular rivet as a quick reference for collectors. There are also others throughout the Lesney ranges. (Currently shown as bif or biff in Nick’s listings for 1-75)
2b Dumper bucket pivot pin Nicks codes 5, 6 and 7
4c Triumph T110 and sidecar Nicks code 2
6b Euclid tipper pin Nicks codes 1 thru 6 ( Antonin code 1 thru 9 )
30b Magirus Deutz crane hook pin Nicks codes 1 thru 7
64a Scammell Army Breakdown Truck Nicks code 1-5 and 9

M3a Thornycroft Antar with Sankey 50 Ton Transporter trailer pivot point
M4a Ruston Bucyrus model 22 – RB Excavator Power Shovel Taylor Woodrow boom pin
M4b GMC Fruehauf Hopper Train trailer pivot point (NAMC description - cab attached to hopper by single rivet) and again this is a semi hollow tubular rivet. One of my M4b has the cab-hopper rivet that was never flared. Please see image showing both rivets in one photo.
M8b (K8) Guy Warrior trailer pivot and many others.

It should be noted that the head of a semi tubular rivet can come in various forms, round head, oval head, flat head, dome head, Pan head, mushroom head, Snap head, Button head, truss head along with other trade names depending on which manufacturer you reference.

Whilst it is too late to change any Matchbox Lesney catalogue that are in printed form, is it is possible to make changes in current online catalogues to reflect the correct terminology.

Would Nick and other catalogues be happy to alter the terminology in the 1-75 listings to reflect correct rivet type given collectors have used bif (biff) for the past 30 years?

If any member has any Lesney reference to bif rivet earlier than 1985 (Michael J Stannard) it would be good to know, along with thoughts on a terminology change.

This is the short non technical version.

Bert.

Note - image use.
Where the images are not my own, I have been given permission to use and with others permission has been sought. Should there be any objection by the owner to the use those, I will edit and replace with an approved image.

[GHOSTHUNTER]

Thank's for a comprehensive description of Bif/Biff misuse. If I were collecting the models that make use of the types of fixings shown in the images, I would be happy to adjust to the correct terminology.

It is similar to the way we all describe baseplate fixing rivets, but in actual fact they are not and I was pulled up on this on another model based forum and it was difficult trying to explain the reason why we all follow suit (its the Hoovering and collecting Dinky Toys syndrome!).

I can not help with the origination of the term Bif/Biff, but hopefully a member here will have something to add.

Ghosthunter.

[MatchboxFreak]

Thank you Bert
Clearly written, well researched and thoughtfully articulated.
I always wondered where the term biff digit came from. I have learned something new today.
I'd support your proposed revised description.
Kurt

[ChFalkensteiner]

Many thanks for this explanation!

I have been familiar with the term "bif rivet" only from Stannard's catalogue (I agree that all later publications probably copied it from there), and since I am not a native English speaker, while Michael Stannard and his contributors are, I have never had any reason to doubt his terminology or to even investigate the real meaning of that term.

I may add that the earlier UK Matchbox articles (by Ray Bush and Robert Newson) do not use the term "bif rivet", instead saying something like "flat headed pivot pin with hollow riveted end" and using just "flat" (as opposed to "domed" for the later type) in the variation listings.

Since the term "semi-tubular rivet" has to my knowledge never been used for anything else in the world of Matchbox cataloguing, there is no danger of it being confused with something else, and I have no objections against using it from now on as suggested.

[Idris]

Fascinating!
My vote is for a change to the correct terminology.

[fixer]

while technically correct would a change of the term biff rivet cause confusion amongst collectors not familiar with our forum

[Brad Pittiful]

[tractorboy]

Many thanks Bert for the clarification of the 'bif' rivet and the photos showing examples.

[kwakers]

I believe Dan has now shown us the origination of the Biff rivet name, simply a company offering several styles and end treatments on a product offering that none of us had ever heard of before. Since Stannard had used Lesney's museum models as part of the research on his 1985 variation Guide, could he have also learned that the Lesney company used these BIFF brand of rivets in assorted styles in producing the models Bert has so meticulously documented here for us. Any worker at the Lesney plant who had worked with these bulk packed rivets would have naturally called them Biff rivets if they handled hundreds of packages from that particular company during their years of employment there. It might now be possible to research their use through that Biff company if they may still be in business in the U.K.? If they are a U.S. company that Dan has found reference to, I doubt that Lesney would have imported that minor of a product for their factory to use, but maybe they may have??
What a fine job on your research here Bert! I can confirm and add that neither in Bob Brennen's 1971 or his 2nd printing of his NAMC Lesney Guide in 1973 did he detail any codes using different rivets on any of our Lesney models. Bob missed the rivet details that we now take for granted because of both Harold Colpitt's, and later Mike Stannard's more thorough listing of their many different treatments that they had noted.
Harold Colpitts must have been the first Yank to note ANY of these different rivets in his 1976 original AIM Guide. I can say definitely that Stannard did not get the idea of different rivets from that AIM Guide because he missed so many common U.S. Matchbox variations that were cataloged both there and in Bob's earlier U.S. NAMC Lesney Guide. kwakers

[Tinman]

For Dick (and others): The label put up for Biff Tannen Rivets is a joke based on the fictional character of Biff Tannen in the Back to the Future Movies. No such company exists or did exist.

As to changing the term at this late point in time, I think it would only cause mass confusion and be counter productive. It might be technically incorrect, but it's a widely accepted term for those specific rivets (within the hobby). I say let sleeping dogs lie.

Now Biff, I want two coats of wax on those cars ...

I believe Dan has now shown us the origination of the Biff rivet name, simply a company offering several styles and end treatments on a product offering that none of us had ever heard of before. Since Stannard had used Lesney's museum models as part of the research on his 1985 variation Guide, could he have also learned that the Lesney company used these BIFF brand of rivets in assorted styles in producing the models Bert has so meticulously documented here for us. Any worker at the Lesney plant who had worked with these bulk packed rivets would have naturally called them Biff rivets if they handled hundreds of packages from that particular company during their years of employment there. It might now be possible to research their use through that Biff company if they may still be in business in the U.K.? If they are a U.S. company that Dan has found reference to, I doubt that Lesney would have imported that minor of a product for their factory to use, but maybe they may have??
What a fine job on your research here Bert! I can confirm and add that neither in Bob Brennen's 1971 or his 2nd printing of his NAMC Lesney Guide in 1973 did he detail any codes using different rivets on any of our Lesney models. Bob missed the rivet details that we now take for granted because of both Harold Colpitt's, and later Mike Stannard's more thorough listing of their many different treatments that they had noted.
Harold Colpitts must have been the first Yank to note ANY of these different rivets in his 1976 original AIM Guide. I can say definitely that Stannard did not get the idea of different rivets from that AIM Guide because he missed so many common U.S. Matchbox variations that were cataloged both there and in Bob's earlier U.S. NAMC Lesney Guide. kwakers