7a with silver milk crates

[SMS88]

... well, there goes my hope for a serious discussion.

We have covered all the likely combinations of circumstances , motives and opportunities.
I refer you back to our previous discussion of this model which focused on the nature of masks,clogging and dripping that was first deeply discussed re the 14c Lomas 1st silver trim version. I have looked at my factory silver trimmed 7a once more and the silver paint on my driver still looks like run down from a clogged mask which was the generally accepted conclusion of our previous discussion. Considering the timeline for this silver trimmed model and the reductions in silver trim on YY made in the same year there is every reason to expect mask only rather than brush + mask combo trim if we are talking factory rather than home detailing to drivers.
Some folks can choose an objective scientific approach with historical support to brush trim and others can have a religious faith in the purity of brush trim - we have a forum that accomodates both preferences here

If this is by some freakish chance a factory original in all respects then the odds are the extra care was taken because it was made for display - display models for UK and European tradefairs tended to have screw holes in baseplates to prevent them from being lifted, but for Bronner and USA all I know is that we have heard about sales samples of updated models being supplied in multiples not singles.Quick reference to some old US catalogs may reveal suspiciously neatly painted 7a drivers hats and until somebody does dismiss this suggestion with proof it is the most valid way to prove model is genuine not fake

[Sir_Matchbox_96]

I can just ad the link to hardy's example.
The driver got also silver paint/ trim and his description says that this variation "of course was made by accident as the milk bottles never should be silver".
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Matchbox-RW-7A-M ... flpQ9VcUhQ

Greetings,
Linus

[Idris]

If this is by some freakish chance a factory original in all respects....

Why shouldn't it be? I see nothing suspicious about it. Why should a "freakish chance" need to be involved?

...then the odds are the extra care was taken because it was made for display...

Unsubstantiated speculation (again).

Quick reference to some old US catalogs may reveal suspiciously neatly painted 7a drivers hats and until somebody does dismiss this suggestion with proof it is the most valid way to prove model is genuine not fake

I have no idea what you are driving at.


Could I suggest that we return to discussion of the facts and debate the matter in question, namely the suggestion (and evidence) that the silver-trimmed 7a had a combination of hand-applied and mask-sprayed trim?

[SMS88]

If this is by some freakish chance a factory original in all respects....

Why shouldn't it be? I see nothing suspicious about it. Why should a "freakish chance" need to be involved?

...then the odds are the extra care was taken because it was made for display...

Unsubstantiated speculation (again).

Quick reference to some old US catalogs may reveal suspiciously neatly painted 7a drivers hats and until somebody does dismiss this suggestion with proof it is the most valid way to prove model is genuine not fake

I have no idea what you are driving at.


Could I suggest that we return to discussion of the facts and debate the matter in question, namely the suggestion (and evidence) that the silver-trimmed 7a had a combination of hand-applied and mask-sprayed trim?

Freakish chance quite obviously because this model is 55 years old and never been discussed before online (note - FACT) or in any collector literature as a potential legitimate variation - idris is clearly out of his depth failing to realise that we are not dealing with an everyday 7a here however as he says himself, ´´I have no idea what you are driving at ´´ yet insists on speculating that this is a genuine factory original brush trimmed 7a driver instead of actually finding evidence in Lesney catalogs

[Tinman]

It was discussed at length on the mcch years ago and the conclusion there was mask sprayed crates hand applied paint to the driver.

[Idris]

Freakish chance quite obviously because this model is 55 years old and never been discussed before online (note - FACT) or in any collector literature as a potential legitimate variation...

Really?

It was discussed at length on the mcch years ago and the conclusion there was mask sprayed crates hand applied paint to the driver.

idris is clearly out of his depth failing to realise that we are not dealing with an everyday 7a here however as he says himself, ´´I have no idea what you are driving at ´´ yet insists on speculating that this is a genuine factory original brush trimmed 7a driver instead of actually finding evidence in Lesney catalogs

I still have no idea what you are talking about (and you seem equally incapable of explaining). What is suddenly so special about a "brush-trimmed 7a driver, and what have Bronner catalogues got to do with the price of fish? Are you perhaps fussing about the combination of a hand-painted driver and spray-painted crates? If so, you obviously haven’t read my earlier post in which I comment that my silver-crate 7a has a hand-painted driver, albeit in a silver cape rather than a white hat.

[Tinman]

I have the consensus of that old discussion and will post it later when I get home.

[Tinman]

When the variation was discussed on the other forum, several things became clear. I will outline the conclusions:

The variation came about when mask spray trim came into use.

The silver trim came in the early senior years of the life of this model. One more casting variation would occur before the model was replaced. That modification was to further strengthen the draw bars for the horses. The model had gone back to white trim by the time of the last casting modification (although to a lesser amount as the side lettering was not picked out).

The horse trim was modified and less areas were painted. The model received plastic wheels instead of the exclusive metal wheels. Side lettering discontinued receiving paint.

Nearly a dozen models were located and discussed at the time. There were three found for sale at the time of the discussion and with the number of model owners coming forward with examples, the model was concluded to be rare but still produced in larger quantities than previously thought. To put this in perspective, several other models, that are also considered rare (yet are not pre-production or limited trials) were offered for comparison. The conclusion of that was that a significant number of silver crates survive and exist, far more than some other rare models.

Examinations of that batch of milk floats concluded mask sprayed trim applied to the crates, driver hand painted. There were some that argued for mask spraying of the driver but overwhelming evidence pretty much shot down mask spraying of the driver. Many factors lead to the hand painted decision. The overwhelming factor for me was that none (and they we closely examined by their owners) showed any of the signs of feathered edges or over spray commonly associated with mask spraying. Within the group, no two drivers had the exact amount of silver trim. Some drivers had a fairly large area of silver trim, while others were minimal. Some didn't even have the hat in silver which would be impossible if you subscribe to the alleged theory of how the trim was spray applied.

[Tinman]

A side line of the discussion was that C. Mack was very negligent in not updating his variation guide. AFAIK, he's still reporting this variation as having silver crates and metal wheels, long after the model variation has been widely recognized and properly identified. But then, Charlie is infamous for not correcting his guides and continuing to churn out updated books without any corrections. Woe be the collector that only relies on his books/guides.

By the way, some of the noted people contributing to that discussion are members here (Matchbox and Molars and Jim G. to name a couple).

[Idris]

Very interesting, Joe. It looks like an open-and-shut case to me.
At first sight, a two stage trimming process seems odd, but of course that is precisely what cars with tail lights underwent. However, that was all hand applied whereas this variation represents a combination of mask-and hand-applied trim. (Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other models where this is the case.)
It's odd that just the driver's hat on your example should have been trimmed in white rather than the whole figure although it is a known late trim variation. I think it certain that crates and the drivers were trimmed at different times because they are completely different operations so, on that basis, this model must represent a mask-sprayed crate silver trim body which had driver trim added at a later date once the trim had returned to white.
BTW, did the later variations with white trim still have mask-sprayed trim to the crates, or did Lesney go back to hand painting? (My guess would be the latter because of the thickness of the white paint, but that's not to say that they didn't try...........)