9a Dennis Fire Engine

[Idris]

If there is so much doubt,...

I'm not sure that "doubt" is the correct word. I think "caution" might be more appropriate.

[durangokid]

My most sentimental model (9a) as it was the first Matchbox model that my Dad purchased for me in 1958-9. Sure do wish the box would have survived!!
Enjoyed the info on the smaller "wheels"..............

Bill

[Diecast]

As I have checked it once more, it could be a cutted and glued axle or too much painting which glue the wheel. I do not want to use too much force to prevent destroing the model. I do not know.
Antonin

[numi]

A very Happy New Year to u as well Antonin...
numi

[Idris]

Maybe its the small front wheels of the cart, here is a picture of the rear wheels from the last discussion I can remember.

I've been trying find that discussion, both here and on Lefora, but to no avail. Can anyone provide a link or, failing that, briefly describe the difference between normal escape wheels and the covered wagon wheels? (I think it's all to do with the depth of the hub on the outer face, but would like this confirmed.) Thank you!

[yellowfoden]

First of all Happy New Year to all guys here. Today I would like to show you a very interesting model 9a Dennis Fire Engine. It is a model with a small escape ladders wheels. Usually it is mentioned that the ladders wheels are smaller and have 16 spokes. Because it is rather a rare model, it was impossible to verify it somewhere. Here are the dimensions:- Ø11mm (circa plus, minus 0.2 mm)- 10 spokes- rounded rims- 4.5 mm hubs Antonin

Maybe its the small front wheels of the cart, here is a picture of the rear wheels from the last discussion I can remember.

I've been trying find that discussion, both here and on Lefora, but to no avail. Can anyone provide a link or, failing that, briefly describe the difference between normal escape wheels and the covered wagon wheels? (I think it's all to do with the depth of the hub on the outer face, but would like this confirmed.) Thank you!

Hello Antonin, Hugh, Jason and all,
Not such a brief answer from me but thought some extra detail may be worthwhile for future reference. Apologies if some of info came up before in previous lost threads. Have also added different view to add to Jason’s covered wagon image to show hub design and wheel profiles.

Covered wagon and 9a fire escape wheel comparison plus Charbens and BenBros.

Covered wagon Front wheels
12 spoke
Wheel diameter 11.2mm
Hub length 2.67mm
Hub diameter 3.25mm
Outer hub is recessed about 0.15mm (difficult to measure)

Rear wheels
12 spoke
Wheel diameter = 13.3mm
Hub length about 2.4mm. hub does not extend outside line of rim and is recessed about 0.35mm inside line of outer rim
Hub outer side diam 3.25mm
Note inner side hub is tapered ( this being a handy reference )
Axle diameter 1.52mm

Wheel description
Outside is flat on some but can be found angled on others. On my examples not all wheels are the same.
The spokes radiate out from an off centre position on the hub at an angle. See picture.

9a fire engine wheel
12 spoke
Wheel diameter = 13.3mm
Hub length 3.6mm
Hub diam 3.3mm
Axle diam = 1.47mm

So while the diameter of rear wheels are the same and the hub diameter on outside the same that is where the similarity ends.
Clear differences
Spokes radiate from central position on hub ( different to the covered wagon) , and the hub extends beyond the line of outer rim

The hubs on the fire escape is 3.3mm on inside and outside whereas the covered wagon has a tapered or chamfered inner side.

My other difference is the profile of the fire escape rim is rounded on outer edge whereas the covered wagon has sharp crisp edges. I see Antonin has said he has some square edged but all my 5 checked are rounded. (I do have a 9b that has square edge though)

With reference to the smaller wheel Antonin has shown all my Charbens have 12 spoke wheels. The tread patterns are different on some as well.
Each of mine all have treads, none are smooth like the one shown by Antonin.
I do not have the Napier but the wheels on that( Catalogue image) look to have a tread pattern whereas Antonin has smooth rim.


Old crocks Charbens number 12 Vauxhall Hansom Cab 1905
12 spoke
Wheel diameter = 11.13 although one measured 11.5
Hub length is = 2.48 to 2.86mm
Hub diameter = 3.4mm
Profile of outer wheel is round with tread on the outer and inner faces.
The spokes radiate out straight out from the hubs.
The castings are quite crude but the these wheels are actually quite nicely detailed with some having tread all over the complete curved surface.

The BenBros could be the one Hugh aluded to earlier. Here is a number BenBros 27 – 1906 Rolls-Royce from the Mighty Midgets series and I have added all the dimensions to the attached image of the smooth rim 10 spoke wheel. By taking the photo at this angle neatly shows the wheel rim and hub profiles.
Think the measurements fit within Antonin’s tolerances with about the only difference being the flashing between the spokes on Antonin’s.

Sorry for a not so brief reply but hope there are a few useful bits and may come in handy in the future.

Please let me know if there is anything else I can check.

[Diecast]

Hi Yellowfoden
thanks for really a very detailed and professional summary. The speed is not as important as the quality of the contribution. It seems that my Dennis has very similar wheels as BenBros, perhaps identical, but a very poor casting.
Antonin

[Idris]

Hi Yellowfoden
thanks for really a very detailed and professional summary. The speed is not as important as the quality of the contribution. It seems that my Dennis has very similar wheels as BenBros, perhaps identical, but a very poor casting.
Antonin

Yes, thank you very much - ideal.

[kwakers]

I have seen a model that was offered with these same style smaller ladder wheels on it that was sold out of a very famous Matchbox collection. It may have been your model Antonin, but possibly not. We all can now keep a watchful eye out for any condition 9A like yours that now seems like a factory pre-production survivor. I think I recall the Seller of that similar Dennis, so maybe I might be able to get more information or pictures for you from that Dealer on your model's details. The casting difference seems logical as a pre-production on yours, so do not damage the model trying to authenticate just that that ladder axle. If your judgement in hand is original Antonin, you now have shown us yet another of your many 'Holy Grails' for us to enjoy.
Your very detailed summary on these ladder wheel versus wagon wheels has now taught us some very important facts Yellowfoden. I had always incorrectly assumed that Lesney used the 'stock' larger Covered Wagon wheels on this Fire Truck. Logically, I assumed the few 9As made with the smaller ladder wheels had simply used the smaller Covered Wagon wheels on them. With your detailed information, I now see that I have been incorrect in my logic all these years, and that Lesney used a completely different but very similar wheel casting for both of these early Lesney Toys. What a lot of extra work to do this for the sake of authenticity.
Thank You Antonin and Yellowfoden for this very interesting discovery and for the added details on it. kwakers

[GHOSTHUNTER]

To me the wheels have been painted Red on top of a Yellow as this is showing through on the high spots. I have reposted one of Antonin's pictures below and while you would expect a dark colour to cover a lighter colour, this is rarely the case, especially if the dark colour (in this case the Red), is too thin a mix.

DSCN5421.JPG (33.78 KiB) Viewed 651 times

I have not touched this picture with any additional light, the Yellow is clearly visible through the Red. So many of the wheels on the Charbens vehicles are Yellow, it does seem they could have come from a model in that range, weather it is Factory or Dad's work we still don't know.

Ghothunter.