21d Foden Concrete hopper brace ( block) sizes

[yellowfoden]

Hello Nick and all variation hunters.

Over the years I have studied the 21d closely. It always intrigued as to why so many changes were made to this toy in such a short space of time as a regular wheel model.

One casting change that appears not to have been documented but deserves a mention is the widening of the brace under the hopper arch. I had always thought that this brace was widened at the same time when base hole was added.

However Nick has one on his list at currently code 3 messed with my theory and this was a variation that I had never seen and found hard to find. That is the thin hopper brace paired with base hole and oblong shape pivot pin hole.

But I now have one and for me meant a re-think in the progression of this casting.

What this means though is that there is an extra body type that Nick might like to consider for the variation table. ie the code 3 becomes body type 2 and the rest of the body types be renumbered 3 through 5

Neither the Houghton catalogue or M.J.Stannard mention the hopper brace change.

Generally the narrow hopper brace is associated with the casting without base hole and the wider hopper brace associated with the hole in the base casting. Nicks code 3 is the exception. This casting has the oblong pivot pin hole generally found with no base hole and steel barrel pin. For a short period the oblong hole had the plastic barrel pivot pin.

The model shown as number one on the left has the narrow hopper brace and a hole in the base. This combination would make a new body type in Nick’s listing

With the aid of a mirror I have captured the hopper braces as well as the bases although it is difficult using the macro setting and being able to focus on both key areas.

[kwakers]

You are the man with the answers on this Concrete Truck yellowfoden. I have never even looked at these top hopper braces, but already have twelve different variations of this Truck. Two of my 'new' variations were of course your steel pin with crimped ends found with either the first or second chassis under them.
I recently found a steel riveted end pin in the oval hole with the first style ladder, no base hole, and with seemingly out of timeline third style braces on platforms over the bottom axle holes. Are you familiar with that variation? kwakers

[yellowfoden]

...... Two of my 'new' variations were of course your steel pin with crimped ends found with either the first or second chassis under them.
I recently found a steel riveted end pin in the oval hole with the first style ladder, no base hole, and with seemingly out of timeline third style braces on platforms over the bottom axle holes. Are you familiar with that variation? kwakers

Thanks Kwakers,

My variation table also has 12 with another yet to be properly time lined.

The riveted steel barrel pin with wide axle braces, yes I have that one and actually was the one that made me believe the one in between existed which resulted in the narrow brace steel crimped find.

Just recently your friend Lesneylegacy sold another crimped barrel pin and this had the narrow axle braces. See completed ebay sale item number 371163273988. Ideal photo of base showing crimped pin to keep as a reference.
So the count now is six and all still appearing in USA.

But your crimped pin on the first two castings (I assume one has smooth axle brace) is of interest as so far I have only seen it on the narrow brace version. So there could be 14 or more variations which would be good to confirm over time.

Trust you survived the recent up state New York snow fall without any damage.

[kwakers]

I have not had a chance to check for your top block sizes on any of my 21Ds yet, and I don't have any versions with the braces between the rear mudguard and the platform on each side at the rear yet. I am coded by Stannard's Guide, and Nick has shown casting changes he had missed. Even if I only find one of the rear braced version, that gives me 13 models without your top brace factored in or Nick's added details checked. Perhaps you and I can collaborate on an update of Nick's listing on the 21D, but even without Antonin's input as of yet I am sure we will have at least 10 new variations to add to Nick's present table of only 6.
One of the decisions Nick must have made early on was to eliminate coding the 3 types of holes that support the rear drum pin. There was clearly the first oval design hole used with all of the metal barrel pins as well as 3 of my plastic pin variations. The next two rear hole designs were either straight round, or a countersunk hole that shows much wider at it's mouth and tapering smaller as it goes inwards. These 3 hole changes may match up with Nick's 4 body types or perhaps with the 3 ladder types, but now your hopper brace adds another variable. You have 'hooked' me on these Foden Cement Trucks yellowfoden, so now we can also wonder why so many die changes were done in a very short 2 year regular wheel run? What were once just 4 variations for Michael Stannard and Bob Brennen, 5 variations for Harold Colpitts, and presently only 6 for Nick have become a challenge for us to timeline correctly and in better detail than ever before. All these die and pin changes are obvious, but why so many so quickly?? kwakers

[kwakers]

Our Capital District suburb received 6 inches plus of powder snow while communities to the north of us have downed power lines and those in Western N.Y. that you see on the news had up to 20 feet of lake effects snow. We have done very well without any damage, and my recent 3rd story roof replacement is doing very well. A dollar saved is a dollar to buy Toys with...... kwakers

[yellowfoden]

Perhaps you and I can collaborate on an update of Nick's listing on the 21D..... You have 'hooked' me on these Foden Cement Trucks yellowfoden.... kwakers

Thanks kwakers,

Yes, great Lesney minds think alike with collaboration and I shall send you my variation table in the new year. I have some new info and just trying to capture the camera detail.
Being hooked could have something to do with my username which goes back before these models came about and it was seeing some obvious gaps in the models development that started the search. I don't generally look for all variations but there are a few trucks that have some good family history.

The three different types of holes is interesting but all definite variations. I have a couple of straight hole types that have this unusual feature of no paint about two mm around circumference. It is as though it was used in a holding jig. I have only seen it on straight hole models. Both my models are otherwise mint but not sure of it purpose.

[nickjones]

Can you please post your variation list here Yellowfoden. I'm sure many forum members would like to see it and it makes my job much easier when I come to updating my site.
Thank you.

[kwakers]

The problem here Nick is that we are just formulating a new listing of these Cement Trucks' many added visible details, AND, we can still learn from any information Forum members wish to share with us. Yellowfoden's variations are different than yours, and still different from some that I have just found this last year. Hence, a deceptive secret collaboration is now being planned in the dark of night...... In other words Nick, even Foden and I have no idea how many #@*&% variations of this Cement Truck we even have in our own collections and spares as of today...... kwakers

[yellowfoden]

Can you please post your variation list here Yellowfoden. I'm sure many forum members would like to see it and it makes my job much easier when I come to updating my site.
Thank you.

Hello Nick, kwakers and all,

Yes Nick that was the plan. I am closer to getting that done. In the meantime here is some detail about the hopper brace differences.

21d hopper brace background.

The early version of the hopper brace was narrow and tapered with a hole within the tapered brace for the barrel pin.

It was only like this for the casting with the oval / oblong shaped rear pivot pin hole.

Using this same narrow hopper brace casting, a hole was added to the base. This was for a brief time only.

While this oval pivot hole suited the steel pin I believe it caused the plastic pins to wear due to burred edge on the side of the brace hole. See photos.

This was changed to a wider hopper brace which only extended down to the top of the hole, the shape of which changed.

It remained like this for all later castings with the pivot hole first being round and straight to the final type which was tapered or countersunk

All wide hopper brace castings also have the base hole cast in and only associated with the plastic pivot pin.

Here are a few images that capture the size and shape of the two hopper brace types which creates a new body type.

[nearlymint]

Hi Yellowfoden,
I have coded this orange one incorrect, but I seem to be getting a bit lost as to which variation it fits into.
The orange one has the base with hole and wider base braces, plastic pin in a countersunk hole, the ladder is straight with thin rear platform without braces, also has the wider hopper brace that you show.
Jason